vacuum in the hat

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by craig moss, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    SoDak, that is a three hole but looks similar to the one we saw on a ProMod a couple of years ago. The one we saw was carbon fiber. I guess one good thing about a hat like that is the driver can see the lights when in the left lane.
     
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  2. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    smooth curve

    another factor inside the hat is the bournouli effect, in that any fluid (air) wants to follow a curved surface. the air will follow a smooth radiused turn rathern than an angled turn.

    don't forget what drazy always preached. on a fuel fc or alky fc, if you put a marshmellow on the rear deck, the motor would suck it through the hat when you step on the throttle at launch. i know a team that proved that through a test.

    mike or someone more educated in engineering and fluid dynamics may be able to correct me, but it seems to me any sensor in the hat may be misleading because it's only going to tell you what's happening at that specific point. given all the things the air has to do going into the hat, it seems plausible there could be some points of vacuum, depending on hat design and whether or not it's getting the necessary supply of clean air.
     
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  3. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Will, you are correct in the placement of the sensor. Different points would have different readings unless one designed an absolutely perfect injector hat.
     
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  4. jim phillips

    jim phillips ta/fc

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    can some one explain this

    i just got a injector in today 11" tall 5.9/16 butterflies and from the inside the outside holes are blocked off why would some one do this and it has a crack down the back of the injector like it was tring to suck the injector into the blower
     
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  5. Danny Humphreys

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    Gotta throw in my 2 cents, Jeff Fagala, creator of the shark fin, super nice guy, extremely knowledgeable. He used to work for my current engine guy, Dennis Piranio. Said the hat is good for 400 hp on an all out roots application. And yes he has dyno tests to back it up.
     
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  6. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    No doubt....his website actually states this

    "Our extensive dyno test results have consistently shown a power gain ranging from 200 to 400 horsepower, depending on the style injector being compared to".

    It also appears that this injector hat is mostly designed for tractor pull motors. As his statement says "depending on the style injector hat being compared to" so it would be possible to see gains like that over a real old small style hat compared to his shark fin. My question would be what if you now ran the same test on the same motor on a DMPE carbon fiber hat as another comparison then what gain would you see. The one thing you can't get on a dyno motor is that wind velocity entering the hat from the car moving down the track. I would not argue that all his statements are probably true. Given all them laws that govern the flow of fluids and air I doubt that can beat out a three hole low profile carbon fiber hat such as we see on most winning Rootes blower cars.
     
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  7. aj481x

    aj481x Member

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  8. Danny Humphreys

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    I'll call him and chat with him about it. Haven't talked with him in a while. I will say this, the reason they quit running it on Critchleys promod was it was so tall they had to take it off to get it in and out of the trailer. Couldn't run it on a legal promod becuase i think they have a rule about injectors can't be taller than roof line.
     
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  9. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    We've run against a fair amount of Jeff Fagala and Dennis Piranio's work. They build good stuff, they are hard to beat. We know Brian Nelson (this is the motor referred to in the patent, the 400 HP gain).
    Jeff is not lieing, the dyno numbers are correct. But let me add this. I studied the data pretty hard and my geuss is its a gain from fuel system tuning also.
    I've had similiar gains on my own stuff. By that I mean notice the gain on the top end. That is textbook high speed leanout stuff.

    Jeff's hats are for all practical purposes the same dyno performance level as most modern day hats. Definetly better than unmodified birds!:)
     
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  10. blower_newbie

    blower_newbie New Member

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    Hey Mr. Ulmer, Jeff Fagala here. I decided to pipe in here and correct a couple of things.

    First, you are correct.....there was a change in the fuel system......we had to add 1.4 gpm total volume to get the exhaust temperatures back to where they were in the "control" run. The first pass with the F6 resulted in a blower back-fire....had no idea how much more fuel the thing was going to want.

    Second, the gain on the top end is not "textbook high speed leanout stuff"...remember, we have 1.4 gpm more fuel in the motor at that point. The gain shows up on the top end because the blower efficiency is not falling off....blower efficiency is increased, requiring more fuel, equalling more power.

    I'm sure you noticed Wayne Purser (Uncle Sam-Unlimited mod....5 BAE FATHEADED KOBELCO SUPERMAN BLOWN HEMIS) replaced my F6's on his tractor with new carbon DMPE hats last year. He had to lose some weight to even make the unlimited class, and waited on my carbon hats as long as he could...(my carbon supplier dropped the ball, but that's another story). I am trying to understand why, if my "hats are for all practical purposes the same dyno performance level as most modern day hats", is Wayne wanting to buy more of my F6's as soon as I get them in carbon fiber....we talked about it more at the PRI show this year. Everyone knows what carbon hats cost....Wayne is a good business man and I assure you he wouldn't be willing to spend the additional money if there was no performance gain to be had.

    Please don't take my response the wrong way. I'm not an arrogant person and don't want to come across that way. We have talked in the past, and I know you are a very talented tuner. I just saw a couple of things that were in my opinion mis-understandings regarding my business and products and felt it necessary to speak up.

    Jeff Fagala
     
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  11. fasttimesracing

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    ok i have to ask then. on a buzzard is it a benafit to put a radius plate in the back of the hat to ramp the air down and close the opening up to the smaller opening from the buzzard opening? we have to run a air cleaner in the mud drags and only see 90 mph or so?
     
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  12. jim phillips

    jim phillips ta/fc

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    due you guys not have a opinion on the question i asked i was just curious are you just dont want to give me your thoughts on this thanks jim
     
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  13. bruce mullins

    bruce mullins Top Dragster

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    years ago i made a plate to move the injector forward on the blower to put the back of the hat right at the back of the blower opening. i didnt have a computer to see if it did anything but the car hauled ass.
     
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  14. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Sorry Jim, I didn't realize until I read it again that it was a question. The answer would have to be that I would have no idea why someone would do that. It is ass backwards because on a three holer more air goes through the outer holes than the inner hole and thus that is why the two holer was made. I can understand why the vacuum from the blower would crack that hat. I am surprised it didn't suck it into the blower.
     
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  15. secondwindracing

    secondwindracing top alcohol

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  16. jim phillips

    jim phillips ta/fc

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    thanks mike

    i just wanted to hear some one elses thoughts on this i felt the same way i just didnt understand why someone would do this i dont know what it was on the injector is perfect except for the crack down the back thought maybe vaccum had caused the crack
     
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  17. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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  18. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    Jeff Fagala

    Hi Jeff

    Thanks for correcting me, I also hope I didn’t come across wrong. As everyone can see I should have confirmed with the brains behind the test and design before I went off assuming. My Bad!

    To me and my experiences (I’m not a paid engine builder, fuel flowbench operator or tuner, I only do our own motors), it looked like “textbook high speed leanout stuff” along with the performance gain of the hat.

    What I did was take info that I believe to be true, info from my experiences and from others, and formed an opinion. We all know how different motor combinations can react differently to the test part.

    I wish we wouldn’t have had motor problems when Pinkley was running strong, so we could compare. Then when we sorted out our troubles, he had motor problems. And although this comparison sounds good in theory, we all know how many variables are involved in on track performance.

    To sum it all up, your F6 is a hat I wish I owned, but at the moment our budget says different. Such is life! Please update me on a current price.

    I wouldn’t expect our 1600 HP motors to go to 2000 HP by exchanging our birdcatchers with the F6? What do you think would be a realistic expectation?

    Guys, Jeff is an honest man with a proven high HP record to show for it!

    Good Luck at NFMS, if I make it this year, I’ll come chat with ya.:)
    Craig Ulmer
     
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  19. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    Veney had mentioned the casting people struggling in this area on his earlier hats. Something about a dip:confused: Maybe this could become a crack:confused:
     
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  20. blower_newbie

    blower_newbie New Member

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    Hi Craig,

    Hope your 2009 is going well so far!! No problem with the misunderstanding. I think we have all been in the same position.....I know I have....2+2=4, but so does 1+2+1.

    If you can, give me a call at a time convenient for you and we'll discuss F6 gains, prices, etc. (214) 687-6277

    I hope to see you at the NFMS. My wife and I are expecting our third (and final) little boy (hired help in the shop in a few years), and she is due right around Louisville....I'm hoping I get to make it.

    Talk to you soon,

    Jeff
     
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