Strange ignition miss in low gear only...traction control?...you decide..

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Nov 2, 2010.

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  1. The Zone

    The Zone Member

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    I agree with Timo, Clint, Duane and the one other poster in this Will.

    There is no one in the world that would not take these accusations personally.
    No matter how the opening statement is prefaced, it is an attack, and I think you know it is.
    It is a blatant attack in my opinion.
    Imagine if this was directed at you Will.
    "Hey will you are a great tuner and a good friend but I think you are cheating as your car is way quicker than it should".Would you take it personally? Damn right you would.



    That being said,
    I do beleive the evidence is interesting and is certainly open to debate. The Tech people are really not in the know enough to find some infractions.

    There is a better way of putting this issue to bed, An independant official that knows all the aspects of traction control.
    Of course Timo would have to agree with the inspection.


    If many of his peers feel the same way, then if I was him I would want to dispell the rumours and inuendo

    Dean Murdoch,
    www.speedzonemagazine.com
     
    #41
  2. Shawn Jones

    Shawn Jones Jr. Dragster

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    Our car had an almost identical miss last year when running an 8973. Removed the 8973 and problem went away... Yet for some strange reason the numbers did not improve. I don't have video, but I know Steven Bunker took a pic of the car at Barona last year and it shows it "missing" plain as day, and in the picture my car had moved 5-10 ft. Yet our numbers were still "good".

    I also know our team once was in a position where we knew "not thought" that a competitor was violating rules. We chose to confront the competitor and notify officials... By the end of the day the violation was corrected. I'd have to think it would have been much more productive had you done that and had this resolved, rather then post accusations on the internet and have nothing resolved, and a lot of hurt feelings.
     
    #42
  3. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

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    Good is a realitive statement. Could you possibly post the picturr along with your incremental numbers?
     
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  4. Shawn Jones

    Shawn Jones Jr. Dragster

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    Steven has the photo. Only reason I knew of the picture is it was used in a Drag Illustrated issue last year. As far as the 60' times, when I said "good" it was meant to imply that the 60' times did not improve when we removed the 8973 (removed the miss).
     
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  5. Ken Lowe

    Ken Lowe New Member

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    Only the last round counts...

    Yes I was the #1 qualifier but Bob you guys won the race....
    Happy to swap with you....

    Ken Lowe
    www.kenlowe.com.au
     
    #45
  6. LUTHER

    LUTHER New Member

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    What was the Bill Barney fiasco about?
     
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  7. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

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    In short, he was running more CID than he was claiming. I'm sure someone else on here will provide some more specific info.
     
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  8. danrace

    danrace New Member

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    Will i will have to agree with araon hambridge we run almost identical combinations and my car does that same miss quiet often i find it really dosnt slow the car down at all its only one fire per rotation of firing order. We have found it is from being super tight arsed and not changing your leads and plugs which causes the odd miss per reveloution when we refresh everything it goes away but then comes back as it all gets older. it is only visable on slow motion casio the same camera me and aaron use its not traction control.
    Its just poor arse racers pushing there change out policy to the limit.
    P.S If it was me i would be pissed at being accused of that based on that footage(maybe only because i know what it is and i spent almost a year with the footage working it out) still i dont have traction control and my car does exactly that maybe you USA guys just change your parts out sooner so you never see the things we see?
     
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  9. timread

    timread New Member

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    As a previous and I hope returning member of the UK Tech crew I feel I have to throw my ten cents worth in here. It has been mooted that the tech crew does not have the knowledge or ability to check and see if traction control devices are being used in any class let alone Top Methanol Dragster. They have been aware of this issue for some time and have a working knowledge of both the Davis and MSD systems, that being said, if you read articles pertaining to this issue you will see that even the NHRA tech have not been able to adequately police it. http://www.dragracingonline.com/technical/vi_2-traction-1.html
    They have had to rely on MSD to detect what is potentially their own system, so to say that the UK crew is in some way inadequate because of their inability to detect a virtually untraceable system is I feel a little unfair given the tremendous work they have done over the last ten years and more.
    As to the “You decide” debate, I can’t help but feel sympathy with both sides here, if a racer feels another has been cheating and the method of that cheating is “virtually undetectable”, then a forum dedicated to that class is one way of discussing the situation. I think Will is as convinced as he can be that there is something in his evidence otherwise he would not have stuck his neck out so far. On the other hand Timo and Team Habermann have a right to feel aggrieved that this has been opened for all and sundry to comment on and despite their protestations of innocence their championships won and runner up placing will now always be tainted with this issue. Its one thing being accused based on a slow motion video and quite another having definitive proof.

    In my opinion the correct way to have addressed this would have been for the European Tech crews to have approached MSD Tech and told them of the concerns in Europe and asked that, as they normally come to the first international meeting, the Main Event in the UK, they bring whatever detection devices they have and check every car in the class for this system. A level playing field for all racers in the class and without any warning given. While seeking a resolution to this has been on the Tech Crews minds, they also have a mountain of other work they have to contend with too and it’s always easy to be wise after the event so to speak. Further more no official protest has been received and as such they have no mandate to act in this case.

    I for one am sorry the situation here has got to this stage, no-one is walking away from it smelling of roses and a class renowned for its sportsmanship between racers will be the worse off for it.

    Tim Read
     
    #49
  10. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    Tim i dont think anyone anywhere is sugesting that the uk tech crew is inadequet in any way at all, but as you yourself admit the nhra tech crew dont know enough to police this 100% but they are probably better equiped, and had more exposier to the various tc devices than European guys have had, and so may be they stand a better chance of detecting it if its there than the europeans
    that said if this is gong to become an issue it may be best if the msd guys train all of you guys to use their equipment and the tech guys have this available at all rounds and do a random check through out qualifying and elims at every fia event in all the alcohol classes including pro mod as they use the same systems,

    incidently when i purchased a tc system the company i used told me "You are already racing against it" and that is the exact words used, although they refused to name the other racers that had purchased the equipment, my system is wired into my car and is fully functional although My respect for the rules and other racers have stoped me using it, It is always obviously disabled so no one could ever say i was using it if it was found, and will stay that way untill its proved im racing against it!
     
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    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  11. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    tech

    Tim,

    I hope you and other tech crews in Europe didn't take this the wrong way. TC is so far ahead of any tech crew in the world. If you are not a hardware/chip electronics person it's very hard to detect or design a tc system. If you ARE a hardware/chip person, it's very easy to design a system. Unfortunately, with amount of electronics we can now use, it's very, very easy to hide a system.

    If you have ever read one of the manuals with one of these units, its says on page 1 "this won't make a bad car good. It will make a good car better." When I drove the Lencodrive car, we bought a new racepak to monitor timing and bought a Davis box to test with, so that we could see what kind of timing curve we could get away with with TC. We had a scheduled test before we could get the 8 magnet ring fitted to the car, and ended up getting the car into the 5.80s without testing the box. That is to answer the question of 'why do you know so much about TC'. I also hope to get an outlaw pro mod tuneup out there soon, and I've researched it pretty extensively.

    Back to the point. Why not just legalize it? The current rules only give those who decide to use TC an advantage because you can't get caught under the current rules.

    The only way you have any chance in hell is to make timing monitoring mandatory. It would be much cheaper to just allow the TC because 1. a racer technically doesn't 'have' to purchase anything to remain legal. 2. once legalized the cost of TC units will dramatically drop because of new companies that will get into the market and there will be no need for stealth.
     
    #51
  12. topalky511

    topalky511 Member

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    Here are the links to the videos of my car doing the same thing here in australia, one video is from the final of the winternationals and the other is from the next morning testing, I have other videos from the rest of this event and it does the same thing every run these 2 videos show it the clearest, like I said the car was flying this race, fast 60' times, national record, low et for the event, top qualifier and won the event, to be honest I really thought that when i got rid of this miss the car was going to go even quicker but now the miss is gone and we arnt going any quicker or faster.

    aaron hambridge
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdZdHSH9aY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekp-GEHTnIc
     
    #52
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  13. JP

    JP Member

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    aaron hambridge

    your video is of a great angle and one can clearly see only one cylinder misfiring

    In the others video reffered in this matter i can see more that 2 cilinders misfiring in one bank, so in the end is either a greater misfiring problem or an alltogether diferent thing.

    respectfully

    JP
     
    #53
  14. topalky511

    topalky511 Member

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    You are right JP it does appear to be only 1 cyl from that angle, on our australian tv footage you can see a cylinder or 2 on the other side on some runs also but hard to see from this angle, like I said im not taking any sides just had something similar thats all.
    aaron
     
    #54
  15. Dale Finch

    Dale Finch New Member

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    Wow Will,
    Right or wrong......you can't expect someone to not take this personal.......It's your site but I am assuming you discussed this with your friend first.
    Too bad it is in the public forum. Just a black eye for the whole sport.
    Dale
     
    #55
  16. PM 3570

    PM 3570 New Member

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    right or wrong

    I am accused for cheating several times also, mostly not in the face but
    behind the back.
    it feels like a knife cutting into your hart.
    Drag Racing is a big part of our lives and you need to work very hard to go fast. everyone knows that.
    One time we made the perfect run in the dark, way faster then any one went on that day. Badbird came walking into our pits saying that people had started to accused us for having TC. I showed him my data to prove we have not used that. And that feels good. thanks for Badbird to be a standup guy, that's the way it should be.

    So easy to throw sh#@t at someone. If youre a man you had gone to Haberman and talked with them in private our put the money up for a protest. every other way sucks.

    Robert Joosten
    Pro Dutch Racing
    FIA Promodified
     
    #56
  17. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    Firstly I feel i need to make a public apology to the UK tech guys If Will allows me a brief deviation from the topic,
    I think the above post was a bit harsh, The implication that they are just lable checkers couldnt be further from the trruth,

    The UK tech guys are without doubt the very best in europe,
    The problem lies in that the standard deviates massivley throughout the other countries involved in both knowledge and equipment,

    this can be a problem
    in my opinion there should be 1 group of FIA tech guys that go to all tracks and tech all cars all the time so the standard remains high, and there is some confidence that the job will be done properly by profesionals,

    UK Tech Guys sorry if my above post caused any offence

    Graham Ellis,

    Incidently I also thing the FIA event track prep should be done by one group of guys also to give us consistant tracks but thats another story
     
    #57
  18. Techuk

    Techuk New Member

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    Sophisticated Electronics

    The basic priciples of rules in any competitive sport is to provide a "level playing field".
    They also need to be simple enough to enable the officials to make a speedy judgement
    if any contravention has occured.
    I have always ensured that sufficient Tech checking equipment is available to allow us to make a fair decision in the event of a protest.
    I take pride in the fact that UK have the best Tech facility in FIA Dragracing.
    What has become increasingly obvious during the past 10 years is the growth of electronic sophistication in automotive technology.
    This has now attained a level that is almost impossible to "police".
    During this past season there have been "rumblings" of discontent from various pits, requesting that Tech, check this or that equipment on some cars.
    I have always replied that a protest should me made, then we would do our best to make a fair judgement, with a rider, that we only have limited knowledge and equipment for checking electronics.
    It is to everyone's advantage that Will has brought this issue into open forum.
    The bottom line is that if Tech is unable for any reason to adequately enforce any rule
    previously made, then that rule should be removed.
    I also make this comment, that if all competitors have to spend $5000 on extra electronics that can be used as an additional "tuning device" surely this adds another facet to the race teams expertise.

    Geoff Martin Tech
     
    #58
  19. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    A 1` reply Geoff
     
    #59
  20. PM 3570

    PM 3570 New Member

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    wrong

    "It is to everyone's advantage that Will has brought this issue into open forum"

    I disagree. big time !
    Geof maybe you have forgot.
    I remember that a certain UK tech person that has in no way talked directly
    to me, but was telling other people they where after me in person.
    Cause some guy " thought " let's talk sh$#t with only suspicions
    as a motive ( well the real motive we will never know )

    This goes nowhere.

    put the money down, or shut up.

    As checking TC, make a rule that FIA tech people are to see
    the racepak data, that all ignition related cables have label of one bright color,
    and that they need to be clear and located no hidden stuff.

    just my 2ct

    Robert Joosten
     
    #60
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