Strange ignition miss in low gear only...traction control?...you decide..

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Nov 2, 2010.

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  1. Dunmic1

    Dunmic1 New Member

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    Experts

    Noone is an expert but I think you had the answer .
    JUST MY OPINION.
     
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  2. Russ Parker

    Russ Parker Member

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    Nothing conclusive in the video for me. I know Bob Miner makes a great motor, if I were running Top Alcohol Anything, that's what I'd want to have in it. Congrats to Timo Habermann, 2010 FIA European Top Methanol champion.
     
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  3. Andrea K

    Andrea K New Member

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    @ Will Hanna

    Do you honestly expect someone not to take it personal when you choose to display your acquisations in this manner. I am sure there would have been better ways to approach this. Did you ever confront the Habermann’s (your friends) to their face? Did you consider sending this material to officials and asking them to look into it? Why did you wait 6 weeks until after the finals and after the atlantic was between you and the Habermanns.
    What do you really expect to come of this kind of malicious gossip? All I can say is there is a whole lot of guessing going on here.
    If you where my crew chief you would be out on your ear for this kind of stunt. Did you consider what damage you might be doing to Fred Hanssen?

    I have no idea if the Habermann’s cheated or not and I am not in a position to assess that but I believe from knowing them for 29 years I honestly do not believe they would go to the lengths you are accusing them of and honestly I don’t think they would risk doing the kind of damage to their engine that could occur from the actions you are accusing them of.

    I personally think you are just a soar looser, you should take an example of your fellow racers and loose with grace and just get out their and try better next year.

    I think this whole matter is an outrage and it throws a very bad light on the sport here in Europe, I am sure you have noticed during your time in Europe that we do not have the pleasure of having numerous tracks and events like in the states and it is damn hard work finding sponsors and keeping them - this kind of action not only harms the Habermanns and the Hanssens but also the drag racing sport in Europe.

    Oh one more thing try not take this personal.

    P.S. forgot to put my name under this
    Andrea Kloss
    from Germany
     
    #23
  4. JP

    JP Member

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    Couple of facts here:

    1. I understand that Will post is not in any way putting down TIMO quite the contrary WILL is stating his concern in a profecional and very respectfull way.

    2. TIMO's response on the contrary is too boastfull of his accomplishments and takes everything personal.....

    3. If your rules over there allow a whipple at 1.70 on a small cuin engine versus a PSI D at 85% then WIll please get a whipple for that car..

    4. GUYS dont fight over details and videos, whoever drive that car is a good driver so just take out the tach for a couple runs.....
     
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  5. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

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    Idea #4 is excellent, but I'd assume that particular tach (if the accusations are true) is long gone from that car. Anyone have a possible explanation for pressing the reset 3 times while pulling into the beams?


    Unrelated to this issue, but is that Shields' old BAD? Badass car!
     
    #25
  6. Russ Parker

    Russ Parker Member

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    I've driven in TAD and TA/FC. Don't have the most laps of anybody, but have made quite a few. When I'm strapped in the car, I will repeatedly check the shift button positions, reverser lever, chute lever, fire bottles, air system lever and whatever else may be laying around in there with me, even after the car is fired. Call it compulsive...but it works for me and helps keep my mind focused. I really don't see Timo's actions as being any different.
     
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  7. Relentless

    Relentless www.bretitanium.com

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    I don't really want to get involved in the did he/did't he but just to throw something else into the mix.

    Couldn't the pressing it 3 times be like a 'lucky' thing? Same as other drivers have habits.

    Like a lucky charm type deal
     
    #27
  8. Jp outlaw

    Jp outlaw New Member

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    I'm a newb here and rather green to these combos in general; I lurked before registering, then lurked more before ever posting.

    That said, IMO Will posted his thoughts as respectfully and as proffessionally as anyone possibly could. I would think him spelling out his want for it to not sound personal and his want to be wrong goes to show that he obviously put a lot of thought into this and could not rationalize the reasoning for his findings by himself. - I also understand why it would be difficult for Timo/his team to not take it personally when being accused of cheating.

    That said, I view this post just as I believe Will intended it; simple logic. What he seems to have found is not something comon or something easily explained by typical or even extensive blown alky knowledge. The accusation of possible cheating was obviously not made without considerable research/thought, nor was it made w/o basis.

    Hopefully all parties involved can discuss this proffessionally and thus help all of us gain more understanding as to what is really going on with these power plants. If it is not due to some form of "traction control" then obviously there is something going on that we could all learn from and/or maybe help with.


    - Justin Shawgo(Jp)
    close-e-nuff racing
     
    #28
  9. shawn davis

    shawn davis Member

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    All I see in the video is a couple cylinders flaring some fuel. One video it does it before the tire makes a complete revolution. looking at videos of cars I know run the device, dont mist fuel when the control is activating. Not that I have seen

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1SAK2irVII

    not slow motion video but interesting
     
    #29
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
  10. troysitko

    troysitko New Member

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    Habits and the Internet

    I have to agree with a couple of posts above.

    When accusing someone of something as serious as cheating, I believe it should be done in person, man to man. Talk to each other, in the same room, presenting evidence and give the guy a chance to respond before a couple of thousand people read about it.

    I don't know a lot about tuning a car, I'm learning very slowly, but I haven't ever made a car run 5.3 something so my witness of these videos does not mean a whole lot, other than "alright, drag racing videos!" But, I have seen cars whip the throttle and a flame will shoot out, or the thing sounds like a tractor, or they're barely running, then the light goes green and the car hauls ass. So, having a couple shots of raw fuel shoot out the pipes due to a particular person's tune-up doesn't seem weird to me.

    About the tachometer thing, I agree with previous posts and it may just be something to do with what the driver does every run. Before I stage a car, I pull on my gloves to make sure they are on good. I don't have a specific number of times but I do it quite a few times every single run. Now, I'm not knocking the gloves, Taylor makes a fine pair, but after a couple seasons, they are all ripped around the fingers because I pull on them so much. Maybe Timo goes through a couple of tachs because he pushes that button so many times. Every driver has their "thing."

    What I don't think is a good thing for the sport is for the people who are not even involved in the conversation to go off on either party for their comments. Timo was upset and he reacted as such. Will was concerned and posted his original comments as such. What pushes these things down an ugly path is the people standing on the sidelines taking sides and shots at people.
     
    #30
  11. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    reason for that is that its just pulling timing not cutting a spark so that TC system shown wont chuff fuel out as all the cylinders are lit,
     
    #31
  12. Dave Snr

    Dave Snr New Member

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    Things that make you go Hmmm

    Whilst I think that Wills original post was somewhat more forthright (in your face) than was necessary this is not a defense or criticism of Will or Timo.

    I am not getting into any "Pissing Contest"!! and whether this is the correct place to discuss this problem I am not sure, but it's out here now so here goes.

    The “circumstantial evidence” which has been presented has been gathered with the knowledge and assistance of a number of Top Methanol teams.
    There has been for some time a great deal of conjecture and discussion throughout the TMD pits as to how Timo's short track performance could be so good so often
    The ability of this car to produce outstanding short track performance without undriveable tyre shake or smoking the tyres, even on some occasions to haze the tyre and seeming to effortlessly recover and go straight down the track naturally got peoples attention and made them look very carefully at what was happening.
    That lead to various videos appearing which might support the suspicion of a traction control device being used, not an unreasonable assumption in the circumstances I think.

    I have seen the suggestion that any queries should be addressed to the Tech crew at the track by an official protest.
    These guys are appointed to check the cars for safety and legality. I know that they wont mind me saying that does not mean that they have either the knowledge or experience to spot unusual events in a slow mo video.
    I think, a Tech inspector would find it almost impossible to find any component of a traction control system, whether it’s a covert system, deliberately hidden (i.e. cheating) or an unhidden system which may or may not be legal.
    It is simply outside their field of expertise.
    That said, I also know from first hand involvement that the UK Tech crew have made considerable efforts this year to understand the opportunities for detecting traction control, as difficult as that may be.
    The UK Tech committee is well aware of the traction control problem having discussed it for the last two years.
    I have also seen one protest written out and subsequently not submitted and another discussed at length and again not submitted, this by two different teams at two different races but both with the same reasoning for finally not protesting (the Tech guys would not be able to find the smoking gun).

    Since this thread appeared it has made me look very carefully at what the rules say!!
    The exact wording of the FIA rules for Top Methanol Dragster, page 30 para 8.2 say

    IGNITION
    Each car in competition must have a positive-action on/off switch, capable of de-energizing the entire ignition system, in good working order, located within easy reach of the driver.
    Programmable ignition permitted. Only preset times, throttle position, engine rpm, other internal engine data (temperatures, flow rates, and pressures), and transmission shifts may be processed with regard to control of the ignition system. Any ignition system that incorporates any programmable multi-point rev limiter and/or any rate-of-acceleration rpm limiter in any form is prohibited. Any ignition system that incorporates vehicle performance data via measurement, sensing, processing, inference, etc. to activate or deactivate any function or capability of the ignition system is prohibited. Any sensor or wiring that connects or transmits vehicle performance data directly, or indirectly, to the ignition system is prohibited. Ignition system components must be utilized in an unaltered manner consistent with the manufacturer’s installation and instruction manuals unless otherwise approved.
    The use of any automated rpm-control device during the staging/launching process is permitted

    The section that got my attention was

    Programmable ignition permitted. Only preset times, throttle position, engine rpm, other internal engine data (temperatures, flow rates, and pressures), and transmission shifts may be processed with regard to control of the ignition system.

    Normally I would interpret that to cover the use of six shooters etc to control ign timing
    But doesn’t say you can’t control engine rpm it only infers you can do it only once!!

    If you go along with the scenario of lots of clutch, a single rpm limiting chip and a WOT switch to activate it for a preordained set time, i.e., 1.2 sec. it could produce the visual effects shown in the video and probably be a very effective if somewhat crude (by Davis Technology standards) traction control device and still be
    COMPLETELY WITHIN THE RULES.

    Perhaps somebody can tell me if I have interpreted these rules correctly?

    So maybe Will is right and there is something there, and Timo is also right their not doing anything illegal .Just maybe Timo has outsmarted us all!!

    All very interesting and definitely makes you go Hmmm.

    Dave "Grumpy" Wilson (I could not find a hiding place)
     
    #32
  13. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    "Any ignition system that incorporates any programmable multi-point rev limiter and/or any rate-of-acceleration rpm limiter in any form is prohibited."

    Dave - thats why I say if this is what's going on, it's illegal. Even if they were just turning the high side rev limiter off, it still would be 'multi-point'. If it was legal, well I could just hook a series of two steps up to timers and just plot my rpm curve.

    As badbird pointed out, you can't compare this to a davis box because a davis box uses timing retard to control wheel speed and you don't see 'ducks' or misfires when the timing retards.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1_5HKplJfg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1_5HKplJfg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    In this video, it's just not a minor misfire, it looks like a car that has hit a high side rev chip. We're not talking about it just running 'alright' we're talking .894 60'. Next time you watch ESPN footage of the alcohol cars, watch them around the top of the shifts. It's the same signature as when they hit the rev limiter.

    I fundamentally disagree with the statement that a severe ignition miss won't slow a car down.

    A misfire early in conjuction with a digital 8973 box usually comes from the two step not turning off because there is some sort of high voltage or back feed coming across the activation wire on either the transbrake or clutch switch.

    Maybe it would have made some of you happy if I had dropped a bunch of foul language, called them names and really made it juicy. It's worse than telling a woman "don't take this personal but I think you're a real bitch." There's no way to delicately go about it.

    The reason why I waited was I did my homework and talked to quite a few people.
    I'll make no bones about it. My purpose of this was to curb whatever is going on. Some people think that it's an honest ignition problem. I'm not one of those people. It's not just this. I defended these people for a long time. But every time I turned around, it's something else 'fishy'. I'm not going to go into it on here because I don't have the body of evidence I have with the ignition miss.

    Say what you will about me, but I see lots and lots and lots of alcohol cars make passes each year. I have a trained eye and a trained ear. I have probably went to on average 15 races a year or more for the past 10 years. I have heard thousands of warm ups. I have a pretty good mental data base of what's normal and what's out of the ordinary.

    I think it's safe to say, legal or not, you won't see that again.

    Sadly the truth of the matter, in both FIA and NHRA is the only thing keeping a racer from using traction control is their conscience, and maybe their wallet in some instances. Small chips, bluetooth wireless, etc. It can be wired into the components you have. Chances are you won't find a normal hard wired device, much less a wireless activated incorporated chip.

    If you read what I'm saying, it's not some magic box that turns a 5.6 car into a 5.3 car. If they have some sort of TC going on, it widens their tuneup window to the point they can be extremely aggressive early, and if they miss, they at worst have tire shake, rather than blowing the tires off.

    At the end of the day I did this because I've looked and looked, asked around, studied, for several months and I think something is not right here. It has nothing to do any personal vendettas, jealousy, or anything. It's not like they're out running us and I think this is the reason they are beating us. Sorry I'm not as politically correct as some would like. When I think I see something wrong, I'm going to speak my mind. That's me, take it or leave it.

    My biggest regret is that it has caused people to take a side. Inevitably some who I counted as friends probably don't like me very much. But if I'm right, look at the other side.
     
    #33
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
  14. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

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    Totally understand where you're coming from, but I would have then expected Timo to comment on that in his response to Will.
     
    #34
  15. duane shields

    duane shields New Member

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    Way out of line!! Disgraceful!

    Will,

    I reviewed and read your information you posted. There is so much on there that sounds like a politician, I think you should run for office. This is your site and you can be free to post what you like. But to call a person a "friend" and talk this way is wrong.

    1st if you thought he was cheating, as he stated in his reply to you, protest it and find out. Don't go and vocalize something you can't prove.

    I reviewed your videos and they show me nothing. I had a whipple super charger for longer than most, maybe, just maybe his fuel curve is different and it looks like a misfire.

    I happen to have owned that particular car he is driving. I ordered and had it built new for me, It was the first car Brad Hadman had designed to be a true alcohol car. I had great 60 foot times with it and had several .89 sixty foots and even a .85 with that car. This was back in 2002 without all the technology they have now.

    It is possible people can run better than others, maybe they are the best and deserved to win.

    I would hope if someone ever tried accusing me of something as bad as cheating they wouldn't try it in a public forum. You could have waited to post something like this when they were caught, if they were in fact cheating. But obviously they weren't caught cheating, and you didn't care You felt your posting was professional, well it was professionally written, but certainly a "professional" person wouldn't have handled it this way. i guess you wanted to create a firestorm of attention on your website and for that you were successful.

    I feel you should remove your posting now, and think before acting.


    Duane Shields
    3TAD
     
    #35
  16. john348

    john348 Top Alcohol

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    first of all i dont know if this car is using anything or not but

    i do know people in roundy round that have certain pic chips programmed that will say allow them to defeat the manatory rev limiters that they require
    push a certain button certain amount of times and it turns it on giving them an extra 500 rpm over the others
    rememebr this is wired right into msd stuff
    no one would ever find it

    so is this possible you bet
    is it being used i have no idea
    but Will is a smart buy
    could he be wrong you bet
    could he br right, maybe, yes the technology is out there, and i sure would not rely on a tech guy to find it, ever
     
    #36
  17. Ken Lowe

    Ken Lowe New Member

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    Superb performance must be admired

    It does seem suspicious, but it always seems that way when the performance level is raised, I think that is normal. As always time will prove or disprove the situation. As Bob Meyer said in an earlier post I too lived and raced through the Bill Barney (RIP) fiasco and I lost several races to Bill that in retrospect I should have won. I was angry at the time because I had been denied what I considered was mine. Many of us have spent our lifetime in this sport / industry and real achievements cannot be taken from you and stolen ones you never had. Integrity cannot be purchased.

    Several of my associates and I have reviewed the videos and without getting the body panels off the car for a close look none of us can KNOW what is happening. But that is not our job, it is the job of the sanctioning body and if they are not capable then it is their job qualifications that are inadequate. Our conclusion is the performance package is obviously making a lot of power and credit to that, but as always the trick is being able to harness that power effectively by creating the optimum gear ratios and clutch settings and having some kind of “safety net” until you do figure them out.
    What you do in private testing is one thing, what you do with an opponent in the other lane must pass scrutiny. I don’t know this competitor and I think Will Hanna presents this in an open manner that lends it to discussion, and it must be discussed. I don’t know it is such a harsh presentation as anyone who pushes the performance boundaries has to accept that they will be scrutinized by all and if something so odd is happening it is very easy to be a concern. And this is odd. Actually it becomes the responsibility of the competitor to dispel those allegations or suffer the alternative. A verbal counterattack does nothing to dispel lingering doubts. This is not a trick intake manifold like Glidden was covering up with his jacket after he crashed in Atlanta. If it is obvious the blower and engine combination makes a lot of power and if that is what gives the car its performance, what is there to hide? Gear ratios and clutch settings are not part of the items to be scrutinized.

    Traction control is a crutch to help you find out where your combination needs to be for optimum performance, Traction control is legal in testing but not with a competitor in the next lane. Race on Sunday without it and test on Monday with it if you want.
    To use it against a competitor is wrong.

    Quite a long time ago I was trying some different types of spark plugs and there are no video records of it and sitting in front of the engine I couldn’t see it but I could hear it and the engine sounded like it was “shooting ducks” as was stated. A change of plug stopped “shooting ducks” but it made no difference (much to my disappointment) to the performance.

    Time will tell if this racer is fair dinkum or not, and his reputation goes up or down with it.

    Any time superb performance has been attained it must be admired.

    Bob Meyer can tell you how the first “slider clutch” was “invented”. Some great ideas happen by accident.
    Some of us have been in this sport a long time... hey Bob... and don’t go on about the 86 US Nationals OK.....
    Ken Lowe
    www.kenlowe.com.au
     
    #37
  18. JP

    JP Member

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    To all of you who demand Will to take his expression of the site let me remind you WE ARE IN AMERICA and freedom of speech prevails.

    If you like of dislike it then have it your way ......

    If anything else Mr. Hanna is responsable of his actions and so far I haven't hear any good point explaining why is is WRONG, so go ahead explain it to us...
     
    #38
  19. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    Why Ken, don't you want anyone to remember you were #1 Qualifer ? :D

    Bob
    Meyer Race Cars / San Diego
    2010 Our 45th Anniversary
     
    #39
  20. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    site

    Anyone who thinks I did this for site traffic must not know me very well.

    There's a lot of things easier to do just for the sake of traffic than this.

    I'm also a competitor, and this is the forum for this category. There is nothing I have done on this site that anyone else that doesn't own the site could do.
     
    #40
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