spray bar

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by bill, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. Blake

    Blake New Member

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    Has anyone put a flow meter on their spray bar. Any idea what they flow in GPM or lbs/hr?
     
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  2. TOL

    TOL Active Member

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    Blake, if you don't mind I would like to expand upon your question to add .....

    1) GPM per RPM ?

    2) Pressure differential per GPM per RPM ?

    These data values should be quite enlightening if people will share them, for current fixed orifice mechanical spray bars.

    Think total hat fuel volume. That would be the max volume if the spray bar supplied it all. If say 30% was saved for the rear of the screw, then 70% would be the max spray bar flow rate.

    The trick is to match the mass flow rate of fuel to the air mass flow rate through the device, and place it ( the coolant fuel ) well at the same time within/around the device. The device in this case is the blower or compressor. The methanol is a coolant. You just have to decide what portion will be an evaporative coolant, and what portion will be a conductive coolant. The further trick to that is figuring out how much time/distance/ability/geometry you have to actually evaporate the intended evaporative portion. Things like very high pressure, and external air assisted atomization, and cross airflow, help in that regard. Other approaches too.

    Let's say you want the mass flow of fuel through the device to be 10-15% of the mass flow of air, on a per mass basis as a coolant. That's pretty easy to calculate, but pretty hard to replicate with conventional means using fixed orifices and pump speed over a wide range of RPM and operating conditions.

    People often focus on the "split" between hat and port, in terms of the total fuel delivery. Understandable since they have always only had one pump to feed both in a common manner, but the device does not really care about the "split" value. The device wants what it wants, and the engine wants what it wants. All the device really cares about is the mass ratio of coolant to air. The engine below may have over riding priorities.

    Back to my earlier comments, you want to operate the hat fuel in complete isolation from the port fuel. Do different things with each, at different pressures and flows and times. Two isolated pumps, and two isolated control loops. In a sense, cater to two machines at the same time. In our world, one machine just happens to be feeding the other.

    If the hat fuel and the port fuel are the same fuel, then gang two pumps together and drive them from a common drive. If the two involve different fuels, then two pump drives will be required. Each pumping loop should have its own precision back pressure regulator ( if back pressure is being fixed ).
     
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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  3. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    Damn...... You guys can over think a wet dream Hahaha ! , if you want to gain some easy power get Rage to put one in your existing hat or buy one of Janis's hat with it built in.
     
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  4. aj481x

    aj481x Member

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    I'm getting a headache. :cool:
     
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  5. bill

    bill Member

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    why is Janis better than rage Janis is twice the money
     
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  6. Mark Leigh

    Mark Leigh Member

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    Jody , I am thinking the spray heads have a small orifice size -- what is the total area of the heads in the bar ? How many heads ?

    To the separate loop and pumps thought -- why in a class where the pump size is not limited would you add a second ?
     
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  7. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    It may not may not be better. The deal with Janis deal is , if you don't already have an injector hat you can buy his deal complete already in a hat. Rage is a couple of months away from offering his own hat. His will be the he same as the one on the Pee Dee Fleet PDRA Pro Boost 1969 Chevelle. Or Rage will just use your hat and install the spray bar in it. The deal is you can't go wrong with either company. Jan-Cen makes very nice stuff and they run really well , Rage makes the nicest fuel system components you will ever see and supplies fuel systems to countless champions in every corner of the globe.
     
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  8. jay70cuda

    jay70cuda Member

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    That's what I'm thinking. Why are you guys making this so complicated. As Darren stated earlier. You can make and do your own deal. But you better be willing to sacrifice good parts along the way and lots of cash. The pros have spend the money and did the research, not to mention the rnd and boxes of blown up parts.
    Jody stroud- quickest roots dragster
    Brandon snider- pro extreme champ
    Janis- world champion
    Pee dee fleet car- rage personal test car
    Results speak for themselves!
     
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  9. Blake

    Blake New Member

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    Jody,
    Are you kidding me, I do my best thinking right after a good wet dream! So far just about everybody that has used the ComSync EFI system has started to win races and one NHRA division 3 TS champion.

    Just like after the wet dream, trying to make it better. Thanks for the discussions, dreams and thoughts.
    Blake
     

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  10. TOL

    TOL Active Member

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    So that you can run an entirely different pressure and flow rate in the hat, not tied at all to what is happening at the ports. Treat the two systems as two isolated systems, and crank up the hat pressure to aid hydraulic (or whatever means) atomization.

    Like I said earlier, make the hat fuel control "NOT" just a proportion of the total pump flow as in the case of a conventional system with one pump and one barrel valve and one common system pressure.

    This can be advantageous for both MFI and EFI systems.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  11. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Why do you want complicate matters with two different fuel pumps/systems on the same motor. The hat fuel and port fuel combine in the intake runners and the results are seen when reading the plugs. Still not sure what the point of all this is.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  12. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    Rage is about to introduce there own electronic fuel injection system for blower cars. It will be a true split system but will have a common inlet, think of a dual gear style pump. Rage will run the spray bar and blower nozzles as always... A mechanical system. This will save cost on a bunch of injectors above the blower. The ports will be electronic, with all of the associated benefits. The best part of the Rage deal is you send all of your existing system to him .... You get it back , flowed, tuned and ready to bolt on and go to the track with a baseline tuneup. With his in house inertia dyno he can also take your entire engine combo, swap it over and dyno tune it. I'll post the horsepower gains he finds with the EFI vs mechanical injection. All of his tests are done with a current state of the art pro boost style motor, not some old motor with a plain high helix blower and Brad 5 or 6 heads.
     
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  13. jay70cuda

    jay70cuda Member

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    Good deal Jody. That's what I wanna know. Steve petty swears that once efi is dialed in on a blower motor it will become easier on parts as well. And extend life on throw away parts too
     
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  14. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I doubt that Steve has dialed in an EFI system on a roots blower. He sure can do it on a turbo. I understand why you split a fuel system if you have a hybrid system such as what Rage is doing but can't see a gain over a 100% MFI system. Also if your MFI system is tuned correctly through out the run there will be no gain by switching to a EFI system. Once you have the correct AFR dialed in then you can't get better than that. A hybrid EFI system on a roots blower will probable help somebody that can't tune a MFI system.
     
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  15. bmoore

    bmoore Member

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    M
    Well said Mike
     
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  16. kosky racing

    kosky racing Comp Eliminator

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  17. kosky racing

    kosky racing Comp Eliminator

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    This isinside top alcohol I haven't read that EFI has become legal in this class yet!
     
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  18. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Which class is that Mike? We can use it in all PM classes other than NHRA. Also did you see that NHRA PM can now run 20% OD. That's going to help running against the turbos big time
     
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  19. Blake

    Blake New Member

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    Mike,
    I completely agree with you and I would be very leery of a "Hybrid" which basically means it can't do what you need and it needs a crutch to work. Let me start with the negatives here is what MFI has over EFI, and remember not all EFI systems are the same or have the same features.
    1. You are all familiar with MFI right now and that is a very very big deal.
    2. Mike is right, theoretically and EFI system will produce more power than an MFI system but, in reality that will take some work and time just like a MFI system and a MFI system at first is more logical than and EFI system.
    3. In some ways MFI is easier to diagnose than EFI (good diagnostics on EFI is a must).

    EFI advantages over MFI.
    1. Complete adjustment of anywhere on the fuel table in ways the a MFI system can not do.
    2. With EGT safeties (I think ComSync is the only system that has that). It will protect your motor from unexpected events, fuel pump, nozzles problems etc.
    3. No more mag and all the mag problems. Much more accurate timing and timing control than a mag even with the grid system. Individual cylinder ignition offsets by .1 degree increments.
    4. No need for a RacePak. The ComSync EFI records all the data needed and used by the computer every single cylinder event.
    5. Extra data to help tune the motor, 8 wideband O2 that can be used closed loop or open loop fro data collection. Fast EGTs on every cylinder. External air temp, hat temp, MAT temp and onboard Barometric pressure.
    6. Non scientific approach to fuel tables, they are done is lbs/hr or in a VE table. Data is recorded in lbs/hr. Temps is Farenhiet or Celcius.
    7. Up to 4 injectors per cylinder with indivual control not batching and 4 or 8 injectors for the hat on a separate fuel table.
    8. A separate and distinct timing map for each gear and while on the Trans Break with different Rev limits for each gear and Trans Break.
    9. Built in Shift light function that will control shift light or shift the car through all the gears itself.
    10. There is no way anybody or a MFI system is faster than the computer at adjusting things to make the car go down the track.

    Plus more. We are developing a website WWW.Comsyncracing.com that should be up next week or so. Or call Ryan Micke at 573-690-6083.

    Mike,
    I would love to make you a convert, you have tremendous amounts of knowledge and would adapt and take full advantage of an EFI system on a blown car. Anyway, I am humbled and appreciate by your knowledge and skills.
    Thanks,
    Blake
     
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  20. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Thanks Blake, I appreciate the kind words. Just as a point of interest will the Comsync System work with a Davis Profiler? What does the Comsync Data Recorder side record? Does it record DS rpm, shock travel and things like that? Will be interested in looking at your website when it is up.
     
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