Should I go with the MSD MAG or Vertex?

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by hmarizetts, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I believe that MSD is not making their MSD 10+ anymore which is a shame. They do still make the MSD 8 which puts out 345 MilliJoules which is more than a ProMag 12 at 300 MilliJoules. A 7AL3 and 7AL2 only puts out 160 MilliJoules of spark power.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  2. hmarizetts

    hmarizetts New Member

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    I have a MSD 7al3 currently but never ran it on a blown setup wasn't sure if that would even work. I do plan on moving faster with more boost over time so what would be a high limit before the 7al3 starts to lag?
     
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  3. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I think the limit would be based on the total compression which is your static compression, and your blower boost plus the cam. The limit would be hard to pin point because sometimes it is not possible to tell when the missfiring starts because you may not see it or hear it until it gets real bad. You just may not make the power your combination should but to the driver it would still appear to be fast. Then one day you put a mag on it it and it suddenly wakes up. In the case of trying to use a 7AL2 system the NGK Iridium plag maybe a good choice because it takes less spark power to jump from a small electrode than a big electrode thus the reason for the use of Iridium so they can make a small electrode last in a combustion chamber with a lot of spark power.
     
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  4. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    I mentioned the Mallory mag from a budget standpoint ;)

    Personally.... I would save my money and find a good used MSD 44 set up and have it checked by Dave Leahy @ http://www.electrimotion.com/ before I purchase it !

    The 44 may cost you a lot more now but....
    You will never have to worry about upgrading later!

    If you start out with a MSD44 you will establish a baseline so when you decide to step things up you won't have to factor a whole new ignition system into your tune-up.
    When you do decide to go faster (and you will !!!! this is a worse drug than crack!):
    You can add a six shooter or other timing controller so you can put down all that power.

    Another thing that you may want to consider is... If you have a problem, will it be easier for you to find MSD Pro Mag or Mallory or vertex parts in the pits?
     
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  5. hmarizetts

    hmarizetts New Member

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    Does the Mallory or Vertex use these timing controls or do they have their own version. That is a good point about finding spare parts from around the pit area!!!
     
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  6. Moparious Maximus

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    First off, there is no way I would run a (used mag) unless I had it checked out by a mag guy, I dont know enough about them to trust myself inside one. ( magic electric box)

    We run a Vertex mildly worked on but nowhere near 5 amps, I've ran it 4 years with no problems, I had a spare built but have yet had to use it.

    Im sure a bigger mag would make a little more power but in my case a Vertex does just what I want.

    The downside is no timing retards, there are rev limiters out there for the Vertex mags.
     
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  7. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    I have run Vertex ,Mallory and MSD mags and I have always been a "keep it simple" kind of guy.
    Back in the day,I thought MSD was just a bunch of advertising smoke and mirrors and I refused to buy any of it .... but after I finally gave in and bought one and saw all the advantages the MSD mags have , I can honestly say that the others do not compare.

    Have you ever run one of those Vertex rev limiters ?
    I have ... I ran one of those two step rev limiters for the Vertex (for ONE weekend) and I will tell you this... they are ""HARSH"" they don't just drop intermittent cylinders , they work like turning the ignition switch off and on. I was afraid it was going throw the crank out of the engine ! Fortunately this was on a carburated gas engine, I would be really scared to see one on a blown or high compression injected alcohol set up!
     
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  8. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    I agree, I cringe when I hear some limiters "flipping the switch on/off/on/off...", ETC limiters are "soft touch", you can barely hear them working.
     
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  9. Moparious Maximus

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    Yea, I tried a ETC limiter and it didnt work well for me, it started trying to limit WAY too early. I had the thing set on 9500-9900 rpm or something and it started popping and spitting somewhere around 6000 rpm so I unhooked it.

    We called ETC and they said they could make it work but I never got around to sending it out, I should do that before the season starts I guess.
     
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  10. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    If it is an "analog limiter" which uses a chip then it is really harsh sounding and there is no method to their madness on which cylinder does not fire so it is possible to get one cylinder not fire many times in a row. This loads up that cylinder real bad. The software controlled limiters such as what is used in the Digital 7 ignition systems and the MSD 8973 digital PrMag controller are "Soft Touch" limiters and do not sound as harsh plus they do not ever not fire a cylinder twice in a row. Regardless of which one it is I still hold my breath and shut my eyes when the car is on a Two Step.
     
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  11. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    ETC is the one that I had .
     
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  12. hmarizetts

    hmarizetts New Member

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    Why do you worry with a two step?
     
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  13. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    It just sounds scary and looks bad with all the unburned gases shooting out. Don't get me wrong because I have never had a problem with a car on a Two Step.
     
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  14. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    #34
  15. Creech

    Creech Member

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    Was the mag all you changed or did you change anything else? My freinds funny car with older fuel heads and 30 pounds boost went 6.35 with a magIII @ 39 degrees and 6.36 with a msd44 @ 35. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrTLmMdWzLQ&feature=related

    Dont get me wrong I like all the doodads that are simple additions to the msd but I think a msd 12 would work fine esp at low boost
     
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    Last edited: Jan 28, 2011
  16. hmarizetts

    hmarizetts New Member

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  17. hmarizetts

    hmarizetts New Member

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    I hear everyone talk about how much timing is used with a mag 44 versus all the other type of mag anyone care to elabarate on this? Once again I am new to the mag setup here now.
     
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  18. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    All magnetos have an inherent characteristic of retarding timing as the ignition load on the magneto increases. This retarding of the ignition is due to the inability to build and collapse the inductive field in the coil at a rate that will keep up with the load of the motor. The amount the magneto is behind or retarded equates to about four degrees total at high load conditions. If a standard magneto such as the Mallory points type is timed at 36* at idle the ignition will be retarded to around 32* during high load conditions. This means if you really wanted 32* under load one had to learn to set the points magneto at idle on 36*. Racers learned to live with that and they just knew where to set them to make the best power.

    The points style magnetos under no load conditions such as idle can produce voltage at a fairly fast rate but when put under extreme loads the rise time of the voltage into the coil slows way down. The ProMag 44 has a much faster rise time for the voltage going to the coil so the collapse of the field in the coil also occurs at a faster rate. When under load this results in the spark being initiated at a much faster rate than the points magnetos. This faster build up of the spark results in the spark being able to jump the sparkplug gap faster when the cylinder pressure is higher due to extreme loading. This in turn initiates the flame front in the cylinder at a faster rate so the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder occurs at a faster rate and less advance timing is required.

    The MSD ProMag 44 magneto generator still has this characteristic retarding of the ignition as the load increases but MSD coupled it with the Electronic Points Box which contains a magneto timing compensation circuit to eliminate the retard. Automatic compensation is accomplished by the Points Box initially applying retard to the timing at idle and as ignition load is increased the timing is applied back as ignition advance at a rate equal to the amount being retarded. This automatic compensation offsets the ignition timing change by the magneto so the timing remains at one setting in all conditions. If you want 32* at high load conditions you could now set the ProMag 44 at 32* at idle and it would remain where set throughout the entire load range.

    This ProMag 44 compensation feature and the improved characteristics of voltage rise time in the coil is why we now set the timing at idle at a lesser amount of approximately 4* on ProMag 44 equipped motors than we did before on the motors with the points magnetos.
     
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