Should 2 Steps Be allowed in TAD/TAFC - Driver's Poll

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Mar 3, 2011.

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Should 2 steps be allowed in TAD/TAFC?- DRIVERS ONLY!

  1. Yes

    15.2%
  2. No

    82.3%
  3. Undecided or Don't Care either way

    2.5%
  1. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    Yes in fact I can, R&R Rods using a 2 Step; we cycle rods every 15 passes. Perhaps they last until 20, I don't know. The starting line RPM/Pedal should be a function of the drivers foot as stated in the rules. Really it's not a whole lot different than putting an air throttle on a car. We still use a dual stage pedal to make sure we're within the rules. We have the 2 step to keep that rpm consistent since a converter car cannot raise the rpm's prior to staging, it's mash n' go. If they outlaw them no sweat, we added it to turn a "variable" into a "control" and also because it's legal. As far as a clutch car NEEDING one, I don't see that.....but it is legal.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  2. Barry Ferriolo

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    Brandon - When you say "mash n' go" - how long is that? It sounds like a short time. Would your thinking change about the number of runs on the rods if you were on the 2 step for 5 or 6 seconds? I can think of a number of scenarios where this would happen.
     
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  3. clint thompson

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    brandon

    :confused: I disagree when you say that the two step doesn't effect performance. I have spoken to some real smart guys that tune pro mods and in fact the use of a two step will require a different gear ratio and clutch setup to run good. When you stage a clutch car the conventional way you get about 6 -8 pounds of blower boost at stage, so when you let the clutch out thats what you start with. when you stage at WOT on the two step you get about 30 pounds of boost and that my friend is making a BUNCH MORE POWER. You can't tell me that the same setup is going to work when you are leaving the line with hundreds more horsepower. That said, I believe there is no question that it is also hard on the rotating assembly of the engine. As you said, you are limiting the rpm by Misfiring cylinders. Misfire is akin to detonation which occurs when the fire in the cylinder is happening at the wrong time. This is VERY hard on parts. You are wrong on both counts. You also imply that the driver is just as involved as with the conventional staging, wrong again. I don't know your background but I have raced TAFC for over 20 years. You can't convince me or anyone else in the know that it is the same thing. I'm betting the main reason they put the thing on Bartones car is that he was struggling with getting the right stage rpm consitantly. Last year they had some sort of detent throttle or somehting. Getting the stage rpm right is much tougher to do at 7500 to 8000 than is was when we used to leave at 5500-6000. Most people want a two step and leave on the stop because they can't drive. I can guarantee you it is much easier to just "mash and go" than to drive the car conventionally. I am against this because it will be the must do thing as it will increase the performance for those who can manage it. When it becomes the must do thing then all of us who want to be competitive will have to do it and suffer with the consequences....... more trial and error, more (different )gear ratios at a couple grand a piece and in the end cranks rods and such that don't last as long. Right now I get about 50 runs on a 3500 crankshaft. That is $70 per run just for cranks, if everything else cooperates. If the cranks only last 30 runs on the two step that raises my cost to $117 per pass amongst everything else that is going up. I get 20 runs on GRP rods. Works out to $55 per run. If they only last 12 on the two step, that goes up by another 37 per run. I don't think blower belts won't last as long either. Now I have no proof that these parts will suffer, just based on twenty years of experience. I can tell you that when we used Brooks rods and hit the rev limiter just a little on a shift that they would come out on thier own within two runs, three times. This is the wrong direction for the class. I realize you have a different opinion because of your unique combo. However you are a minority in the alky classes at this point and I for one don't think that the rules should be shaped based on a combo that is the minority player in the class.

    In closing, I don't have a problem with you championing for your cause, but you need to use actual facts, not self serving bullshit.
     
    #43
  4. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    I have used the 2 step in this setup for the last year and am stating facts from my own experience and my setup. For the record I have not left at WOT and don't intend to, I'm arguing a point for their legality in my setup along with others who us a torque converter. Why would you be on it for 5-6 seconds? When you roll in to stage you wait until the other guy lights both bulbs and then mash it. After looking at my Racepak I'd say I'm on the "mash n' go"/2step for roughly 2 secs.. Now again "mash n' go" is me staging, hitting the transbrake button, hitting the footbrake, sliding my heel in until we reach 4xxx RPM (blades are set at 4400 or so and 2 step is at 4200. Sometimes we hit the 2 step sometimes we don't, it depends on the fuel system/weather/timing setup etc. I could chop off the first .300 of a run and send you one with a 2 step and one without, you couldn't tell the difference from a numbers standpoint whether it be wheelspeed, boost, etc.. With a converter (which is what I'm defending this for - I don't have a clutch and don't pretend to know what adjustments need to be made in regards to static/base/weight etc.) we had to make 0 adjustments. Tony ran 5.44 without it, we aren't as elite as they are performance/dollar wise, but we saw 0 difference in the numbers/e.t.. The car reaches "x" psi of boost so quickly that the first .2 or .3 plays very little into the entire run because you are generally already on the edge at that point anyways. On average with the motor under load with the converter I see 20psi when I crack the throttle and it levels off to say 10psi or so. I have a timing setup that works for us so that's what we use. If they outlaw it, like I said, no sweat....I'll sell it to Troy Stone:cool: For us, since the converter is so very aggressive early, it provides a level of consistency because we cannot "check" or "control" the RPM prior to staging. For a clutch...sure...outlaw it...I don't care since I don't have one. If so and so wants to run one that's cool too, that's their deal. I understand your concern with talent and getting the RPM up, no arguement there. Perhaps we can all get some sort of petition going (Jerry Powell and I discussed this yesterday) and get some signatures etc...take this to NHRA on both coasts (National out west and National in the midweat/east) and say "hey here's what we have, can you take a look at this?". Debating each other will do absolutely zero, lets take it to where the....magic happens?:rolleyes: The poll here could be used except so many who aren't drivers or owners have voted...and many of the guys/gals don't even get on here. Thoughts anyone...or two? Also as far as rules particular to a certain setup, there are plenty of rules already in place that are for certain specific setups, it is our right and choice to use what we do; we don't get on a box saying such and such should be outlawed regarding a setup which differs from ours.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34

    If anyone is interested in getting a petition together, give me a call at 217-840-1500. Like I said Jerry Powell (other Lencodrive TAD) discussed this yesterday and I've started something small in Excel, would be nice to have input from other drivers/owners in TAD and TAFC.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  5. john348

    john348 Top Alcohol

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    Brandon
    question
    do you think a 2 step is a needed with a convertor
    did Synder have one on their funny car i can't remember

    This one for everyone
    how about 2 steps allowed with convertor cars and not on a clutch car
     
    #45
  6. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    Is it needed, no. Does it provide consistency to a setup that cannot raise rpm prior to staging, yes. As I said before we don't leave at a wide open throttle. If I thought it made a difference we'd do it as it is much easier and would take 7lbs off the car. My RT's are good enough with what I have to do now. If I made it even quicker I'd need a delay box. For a driver that is new to the converter setup it for sure streamlines the learning curve. As for what was on Snyder's car I don't know, you'd have to ask them. If the car leaves at 3800, I don't care; 4800 and I shake my brains out. Our 2 step is there as a catch/safety net. Is this the same on every car, no, I'm just sharing what we've found.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  7. T.A.D. 776

    T.A.D. 776 New Member

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    We need to get back to racing cars instead of racing pocket books.
    Yes the electronic gadgets are taking over racing and this is not a good thing for the sport.
    What happened to tuning a car by reading the spark plugs and bearings. Now it is reading computer data with tune ups for sale.
    I am 100% against anything that makes driving require less talent. If you need a crutch to drive your car then become a better driver.

    Build it Tune it Drive it
     
    #47
  8. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Blower belts

    According to Boggs it is quite a bit harder on blower belts.
     
    #48
  9. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    real driver total

    I was hoping people would realize this is for active drivers; thats why I originally didn't vote in it.

    Here's my tally of active drivers who have voted for/against:

    For (2): Brandon Booher, Nancy Matter

    Against (24): Marty Thacker, Cody Perkins, Bryan Brown, Ray Drew, Clint Thompson, Dave Germain, Doc Powell, Eric Lourie, Frank Schuster, Greg Sereda, Tom Carter, John Lombardo, John Hart, Mike Kosky, Noah Condo, Paul Fishburn, Randy Goodwin, Richard Putz, Ro Yale, Steve Gasparrelli, Sean O'Bannon, TAFC 670 (name?), Mark Woznichak

    I personally have spoken to the following drivers that are against it: Chris Foster, Steve Harker and Lee Callaway.

    I understand there are many more active drivers against it.

    No this isn't everyone, but this site has always served as a decent barometer of opinion within the class. It's pretty clear the overwhelming majority of racers are against it.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  10. Russ Parker

    Russ Parker Member

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    I'll be on record with a "no" to the 2-step. Keep it a driver's class. Plus it will keep giving the tuners someone to blame.
     
    #50
  11. Creech

    Creech Member

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    Sorry, I voted. Think about this; how much heat are you putting in the clutch staging the car, do you have the motor up the same amount of time every time. With a 2 step you fully stage the car at idle, when the last stage light is lit you but it on the mat. More consistent clutch. I think those who are afraid of it dont want to have to cut the 030 or better lights that will be the norm.
     
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  12. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    Asterik next to my name as I'm arguing for their legality as it pertains to my combination. As far as drivers cutting lights, almost every BAD I've gone up against was pretty good on the tree. It's sort of like traction control....is that legal? It can make a bad driver great but a good driver really.....red.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
    #52
  13. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    I don't think thats true at all. When you're sitting at an idle, the clutch is still subject to heat soak from the crank. You'd be staging with a hot flywheel and cold top half. When you rev and drag a bit, clutch temp is more even all over. I don't see how that is more consistent because you always idle for different times and staging high puts max heat on it every time.

    It's a nice crutch for a crew chief who has a driver that doesn't swap feet the same way twice or wants to be super controlling over launch RPM. I can understand it better in Pro Mod and Pro Stock where they need to really control the hit to control how the 4-link and shocks react. Rigid chassis it isn't as much a factor. I will say that even in Pro Mod, Personett still stages that popping turbo the old fashioned way.
     
    #53
  14. eli

    eli Banned

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    I know it's none of my business, But if you all want to keep costs down, Put a glide in the cars, ban the pedal clutch, then you wont be reeving the shit out of your engines, (Free wheeling no less), I know it will slow the cars down a bit till you all figure out the glide but you'll save a ton of money on rods, bearings, clutch disks, and fuel. Just saying, Gene Terenzio Sr. PS Personaly I coulden't see spending $200.000 to win $5.000, thats one of the reasons I quit racing.
     
    #54
  15. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

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    I think there's a bigger problem with it than just the extra costs or perceived lack of skill it takes. Most people feel like these classes aren't particularly wanted, and if everyone started leaving at wot on the 2 step, what sets afc's apart from the pro-mods? they both have blowers sticking out the hood, both run mid 5's, and the pro-mods even look more like actual cars (and they have a class sponsor). It could be the final nail in the coffin. Right now the only thing that sets an afc apart is the staging. People like watching it, just like they like watching the warm ups. It's crazy to watch a car sitting there with the motor screaming, kinda like how everyone likes to see fuel cars hit the throttle on the warm up.
     
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  16. shawn davis

    shawn davis Member

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    What about crankshaft life using the two step?
    I heard it cuts the lifespan in half. Think it was Flanakin told me that
     
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  17. SNAPPY

    SNAPPY TAFC

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    No 2 step what's next..............electronic fuel injection???
    Let the drivers drive and the tuners tune. You drive it, you tune it. Drag it out and race it.
    or Get a XBOX 360 and sit on the couch and race!!!

    That's the fun and excitement of the class you build it, you set it up, you tune it, you drive it

    MAN VS MAN
     
    #57
  18. John Evanchuk

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    I don't usually like to get involved, but on this one I'm with Clint. I'm surpirsed no one has made mention of the declining car counts at every race these days. If we keep driving up the costs to be competitive and have "some fun", Alexis won't have to worry about being timed out because Tony will be there by himself anyway. Point being, we should all try and help everyone survive and keep the class healthy, whatever it takes.
     
    #58
  19. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    OMG! you can NOT be serious!
    That will really cut costs by making everybody sell there clutches that wont be worth anything after the market is flooded with them. Then make everybody buy powerglides that they will have to keep stacked up in the trailer like cord wood.
    Not to mention how happy everybody will be with all ATF clean up time .
    Id love to see how long a glide lives in an A-fuel car after you ban clutches!
     
    #59
  20. was R4K

    was R4K Member

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    i'M PRETTY SURE HE MEANS A "CROWERGLIDE" not a powerglide trans. All smart remarks edited out ahead of time. And as a retired TA/FC and TAD driver, I vote
    NO!
    BOB MEEK
     
    #60

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