PDRA Quick 8 Dragster class - Why no screws?

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Dec 29, 2014.

  1. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    Will, it is not an attitude.... Or some plot against screw blowers or clutch cars. SMDH. Open outlaw has the same rules as Bradenton's open outlaw class at the Snowbirds ( less clutches for ANY car ) and IHRA Top Dragster, which has never allowed screw blowers. Pro Boost specifically prohibits screw blowers, but does allow other types of boosted combos as does open outlaw. The last Snowbirds had a great turnout and Pro Boost has had enormous car counts, both without screw blowers. There are already two places to race screw blown dragsters NHRA TD and TAD. Also you can run PDRA TD with a screw. As for open outlaw.... You and your team are welcome to race just put a roots blower on it , or leave the screw on it and bracket race it in TD. At this point everyone complaining about the rules package are just beating a dead horse.... It isn't going to change anything, the rules are set and we all know that the only thing worse than rules you don't like are fucking rules that keep changing to placate different racers and their combos. Some rules had to be set , rules that have worked well for other classes were copied , end of story.
     
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  2. Sheppard racing

    Sheppard racing New Member

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    12:41 am ?

    You're staying up to late! It makes you CRANKY! I'll call you back this morning, was out eating.
    Glenn
     
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  3. tad2155

    tad2155 Member

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    pdra

    Will as u complain try and b positive wat other option do we hav 2 run heads up its not like NHRA is listening to the racers we hav been there done that, who pays for the sponsorship has a right to make the rules as I hav said this is just a freakin start, it don't cost that much to stick a roots & auto trans on a ride and try there may be several TD's that want to step up and run some real heads up racing,,I actually want some races in the south and will b talkin to some others to help sponsor,, getting a group of races together and help sponsor aint exactly new there is a class here locally
    that has been very successful runnin a door class heads up 5.70 class around 25 cars very strong but oh well as been said cant plese everyone
     
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    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  4. pete9857

    pete9857 Member

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    its his website

    He can say whatever he wants!!!!!!!!! :):):):):):):):):):):
     
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  5. Blown Chances

    Blown Chances New Member

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    It's only an 8 car field at 5 events. I'm pretty sure they've already got their little group that they know is going to attend. Opening up the rules to allow even more cars in will only bump one of the guys already in the loop.

    Will, they obviously aren't trying to build something to rival NHRA TAD. You're thinking too big picture. 8 cars, that's it.

    Flash
     
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  6. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    spades

    First off this is a discussion board. What I was trying to do is create discussion about the class on the ground level. The class is going from something run at Bradenton and a handful of other tracks to a prestigious series and possible national growth. At very least the possibility of growing to the full PDRA schedule in the future.

    My initial point was why make this a class where you have to have a 20-30k + blower instead of a allowing the screws in at reduced overdrive? The cost of racing a roots blower heads up is quite a bit more than running a screw. Screw blowers are the only platform where it has a spec and you can take a 10+ year old blower and make it get damn, damn close to a new one. You just can't get there with a roots. Thats a fact.

    Another point is not everyone is real happy with NHRA and if you let screws in, you may have some TAD and TAFC's cross over. It's easier to make the changes with the screw to whatever the rules package would be than make the same changes and have to buy a high dollar roots.

    This isn't about my Top Dragster guy wanting to race POO with his screw. Right now his focus is on Top Dragster racing.

    At the end of the day I'm happy for the guys who have those type of cars to have an opportunity to race with a series like PDRA. Instead of trying to stay married to a set of rules that was written for the old Pro Outlaw deal, I was just trying to point out some changes that could be made when the class started. That's the discussion I was trying to bring about. The answer was we paid for the class and if you don't like the rules, go make your own class.

    So before anyone knocks me for being negative, the responses from Jody haven't exactly been welcoming to anyone outside of the core group. I don't have anything personal against anyone involved, Jody, Mark, Buzz or Guy.

    I can see potential for something pretty big, but what I don't see is a bunch of people wanting to jump on board a roots/turbo/nitrous deal that's dependent on a class sponsor slash racer that has the attitude my way or the highway.
     
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  7. Buzzman

    Buzzman New Member

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    Let me introduce myself

    Will,
    I am Artie "Buzz" McElwee, I own Toefco and it's Motorsports division, I welcome a phone call from you and or anyone else for that matter if one does not want to use this medium, my phone is easy 800-555-6495, I wrote out another email this AM but it is not on here, sorry I don't use this at all so I probably screwed up.....I want to try and clear the air....I chose IHRA rules do to I did not want or ever intend for a TAD car in this class period, there are just many Top Dragsters out here that do not want to bracket race, Mark is my brother and driver, he lives and works in Florida, I and my company are here in Michigan.I am not getting on here to get into a he said , she said B.S. deal, I just am taken back at some of the comments here on your website from you and others, My chosing to sponsor a class is my business and I was trying to do the right thing and for that you and others have nothing real good to say, as for no screw blowers sorry, go bracket race, If I intended to sponsor a class with Screwchargers it would be the NHRA, and let me tell you I am not that stupid.......that class gets no respect and for those who race it, god bless them, they are somewhat in our shoes, stuck with a car built for that class.Again the comments about bring the money and we can grow a class and expand the rules, well when I went to the well there was no one else to help other than Kelly Trucking , and Rage fuels sytems and for those guys, I am thankful, so again I just wanted to introduce myself and invite a phone call from you or anyone if needed, in closing thank you.
     
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  8. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    Will, I have no beef with anyone on this site..... Yet. As far as being less than welcoming or as one of the other posts said "our little group", I have no idea where that came from. Anyone with a roots, centrifugal , NOS or 88 mm turbos can race. FED, RED, and altered's. Other than comp there isn't any other class in all of heads up dragracing that allows as many diff combos. As far as hurt feelings, I can't help that plainly stated rules give some guys butt hurt. Any racer that wants to come by my rig and have a cold one is welcome.......... Thanks Buzz for all that you have done for this deal.
     
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  9. Sheppard racing

    Sheppard racing New Member

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    Crap

    And I thought I was in the LOOP! That's ok, I'm still trying to stomp the grapes!
    Jody, I'll stop by for some speed secrets, you drink the cold one! Everyone take a breath, get your shit together, and meet up at the track!
    Have a fun time everyone.
    Glenn
     
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  10. Blown Chances

    Blown Chances New Member

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    I'd say, hey I'm not trying to be an asshole, but everyone thinks I'm an asshole anyway so here goes.

    If this is the place for TD guys to step up, my #1 primary only question is this:

    Are you building a class to race heads-up? Or are you building a class where you can't break-out?

    That's a very distinct difference.

    NHRA Comp Eliminator is a class with no break-out. To make it fair, they use staggered start. It's "self regulating."

    NHRA Pro Mod is heads-up. They are constantly manipulating the weight to cubic inch to keep the class fair. It's "politically regulated."

    This has the potential for growth. I applaud your efforts to build a class with this group of racer in mind. ( Not a bracket racer, but also not a PM, TAD, or TAFC racer) That being said, think about the complaints that will come with a particular rule, or lack of rules. You can never limit spending. But unfortunately what will happen is undoubtedly someone will show up with a combo that outperforms the whole field by .1+. When that happens, people are going to give up rather than drive themselves to bankruptcy. It's a sad truth.

    Will wants to see this opened up to allow even more fruit in the basket. I agree, but when one person's oddball combination outperforms everyone else, are you going to punish him with a different weight break? Or outlaw his combo to make everyone else happy? It will be a politically regulated class and someone is going to have to be the bad guy to keep things fair.

    That's my point, as long as it's a small group with similar budgets. These rules will suffice. If you're hoping to see this grow, now is the time to establish a system to regulate the different combinations, and still encourage innovation. I wish drag racing had more innovation like it used to.

    Cody "Flash" Perkins
    flash568@gmail. com
    801-301-3605
     
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    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  11. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    discussion

    Buzz & Jody -

    I tried to discuss the rules and direction of the class. Usually open discussion from people with different viewpoints and backgrounds can be constructive. In the eyes of some, that has me labeled as a "complainer." While it may take a different path, the goal of my discussion was to help grow this class.

    I want to be clear that I am not butt hurt over this. When the conversation turned from discussion to "if you don't like these rules go get your own class," that's when it seems some people got upset. Whether you like it or not, when you make statements like that, you really set the tone for the direction of the class. Whether someone likes that or doesn't, it's going to be on their mind if they make the decision to build a car to run POO or something else.

    I'm sure there are quite a few Top Dragster racers, if not the vast majority who would rather race heads up than brackets. It's bracket racing with a little go-fast mixed in. Its fast cars and you have to qualify. While some may have the money but choose not to, for most Top Dragster is what they can afford. Being competitive in POO is not going to be much if any cheaper than TAD. It's a heads up class. The big fish always find the way to the small pond. I'm not saying that as a knock, but this is a new class (again). The guys and gals like Stroud, McElwee, Esz, Hutson aren't running the numbers they do with a bunch of hand me down parts and some hand me down blower. It's going to take most TD racers a bunch of money to go from the 3.80s or .90s to the .70s and .60s. I'm guessing the bump will be in the .80s this year pretty quick. That is going to discourage most of your average TD racers, even the faster ones.

    The rules as they are make it to where you will have a purpose built car for POO that will not have much, if any application outside of that. At some point when someone's $20k + blower is an also ran, and the only choice you have is to stroke someone else a bigger check, or rent a blower for $5k a race, the thought may cross someone's mind "why was a roots only class a good idea?" A Proline powered dragster with unregulated 88's may be hateful. A Musi powered dragster could be a handful. Neither one of those exist, but they could. Heaven forbid you let the guys with a 10 year old blower coated by some rattle can guy in Phoenix into the mix. Those cars do exist.

    Finally Buzz, I'm not trying to knock you for sponsoring the class. It's really a noble deal to front the money so people can race on the PDRA stage. You said you were taken aback by my negative comments. All I was doing was discussing the class, asking the question of why, and I was told if you don't like it go find the money to fund your own class. Please understand that myself and others were taken aback by that comment and attitude.
     
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  12. jody stroud

    jody stroud ZOMBIE Top Dragster

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    Will , if you go back and look at the beginning of this thread you will see that I tried to make a polite , clear case of why the rules were set the way they were. Probably should have let it go at that. Like Robert Reele said ... Make the rules early and don't change them. If "wizz bang" "blowers get out of hand then that will probably be addressed. Buzz has done his level best to set a good , known, easy to police set of rules. And make no mistake , the PDRA had a hand in establishing these rules. Don't know how happy they would be to see an upstart dragster class outrun their fastest extreme class. As it is our cars will be nearly as quick as the majority of the pro extreme cars. Last year most of them ran mid to high .50s and low .60s If the class turns into something I can't afford I'll just detune it a little, run 3.80s and race in TD.
     
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  13. ron bales

    ron bales New Member

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    rules

    well said jody plus they can find a sponser to put up 40 or 50 grand and start a top alky class at pdra like we did
     
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  14. ron bales

    ron bales New Member

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    screws

    letting screws in our little deal will get the same results as letting nitro into top alky we would then be looking for place to race like you are now put roots on a converter come race have fun
     
    #74
  15. Sheppard racing

    Sheppard racing New Member

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    I believe this horse is dead already
     
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  16. Rat Rod Rail

    Rat Rod Rail New Member

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    Rules

    I have been watching this thread on and off for the past couple of weeks and feel like I need to drop in my $0.02.

    Just finishing a new car for TD over the winter, I upped my ante from the previous one with a hotter motor and some more safety than before. With this combo I knew on a good track and good weather I could easily be in the mid to low 6.40's. A combo that could easily put me in, or near to, the top half of the field at most Division 4 races and possibly some Division 2 races. Now, the onset of the NHRA announcement to go for National Titles (every dedicated TD racer's wet dream). I know that my combo, 540cid BBC with an alky injected HH 8-71 Littlefield, is a bit on the conservative side considering the combinations you find in the class but it hauls the mail when it needs to. With the possibility for National Title on the line, it creates a surge in the class for more money spending to try and be even faster (which is stupid considering all we are doing from R1 on is bracket racing). Why in the world would anyone see a legitimate need in throwing a screw blower on a car with a class that is only allowed to run 6.00 in the 1/4? Sure you can afford it and it seems like a badass idea, but thanks to that screw, someone who has been busting their tail to qualify for months is on a slow ride home.

    (Sorry if any of this has been said already in this thread, I said I didn't read it all) Over the years that I have been in and out of the class in both IHRA and NHRA, the precious rules have changed to allow the spending of more and more money by the racer. When TD was created first in IHRA (someone correct me if I am wrong, hell I am human) the rules were basically set up so that you could run a blown (8-71 or smaller), NOS, natural aspirated, or maybe even a turbo and compete in TD, just don't mix any. NHRA then started picking up the class and kept the rules. People wanted to move in but wanted to go faster, so they then allowed up to a 14-71. NHRA separated itself and only allowed competitors to run 6.00 at quickest, and set a field of 32 cars (well, Division 7 is special, they get more). IHRA went to an open field with no minimum ET barrier, fun for a bit but it turned it into Super Comp with a full tree considering the cars that run the class now. Seems that both bodies now feel it's ok to run screws. This was all fine and good because it lets the small handful of cars that run them come compete in the class. Even pro chargers are coming into the mix, perfectly fine, more competition. But don't forget, we run converters and glides. TD has evolved in so many ways over the years and has experienced and been forced to abide by so many rules, but the racers in the class are more resilient than you can find most anywhere else, any class that has paid their own way with MINIMAL sponsorship (hats off and a heartfelt thank you to those that do support us!).

    Just recently back from my first ever PDRA race in Shreveport, which did not have the POO class in attendance. Even with me fighting and scratching to make the field set up of some heavy hitters, it was one of the better weekends I have had in some time (it was a breath of fresh air to race with a Sactioning Body who WANTS you to be there). I was hoping to see some of those cars there though, but that wasn't my call. Now check the qualifying for the race, there were a good bit of the top half qualifiers that could have ran the POO field if it would have been there and they would have been very competitive. None of those guys had screw blowers. I enjoy the rules structure that they have with PDRA, basically an adoption of NHRA/IHRA rules. Face the facts, we can sit here and ponder the what if's and should be's of what a new class should be ruled by. The history of the POO, Pro Extreme Dragster, and other various names the class has held regardless of sanctioning body it has ran under hasn't been pretty. For whatever reasons, it was badass and exciting while it lasted, but didn't seem to be able to hold on. The cars and drivers that ran those classes were always an elite and select few, but in hindsight, it always felt like they were teams that could not afford to run in the TAD/TAFC/PM rank and were too proud to abide by the rules set for the lower class of TD.

    Instead of sitting here and picking apart a start-up class that PDRA is trying to get off the ground by adding new rules and criticizing the existing rules, how about we just all sit back and see what happens. If it grows with the way it is set up, sit back and admire! If it happens to fizzle out over time, then you can come in with your "the class should have been set up like..." attitude. Will I understand, you are a business man and classes like this are a chance for you to make some revenue with parts and complete cars. You've already put together a very competitive detuned TAD with a glide and a delay box that runs with us in TD D4. Very good job on that one. But how about this? Can we just sit back and see how this POO class is going to pan out with the rules that are already in place?

    Just my $0.02, but it looks like $14.96 with all the words...
     
    #76
  17. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    screw

    I have already stated my piece in regards to the Pro Open Outlaws and screws. The screw is not any more expensive, if not less expensive than a modded roots. It was to open the door to more potential competitors and to control costs. In my opinion, roots only will lead to it being a more expensive class to run because to compete, it will take a modded blower.

    I appreciate the compliments on the TD. I think if I could only run an 8-71, it would be more expensive to run than the way we run it now. It would have to be a good piece and we would have the motor wicked up, ratio on edge, etc. We would probably have to be running it fairly hard to run bottom 6's. Definitely harder than what we run the screw motor.

    The problem many racers run into is they have raced BBC's for years and that is the platform they build off of. The stresses of making enough power to run bottom 6's (and quicker) is just tough on that combination. The Hemi is built to handle a lot more power, so the power level we are using to run 6.0 really doesn't stress it. There are a ton of used parts out there for the combination readily available. This car was really built on a budget out of used parts. It was old hand me down alky parts and an old TAD chassis.

    I really don't know how much cheaper or slower the class would be right now with the old rules in place. Nitrous cars are in the bottom 6's these days. In my opinion performance restrictions would only serve to make the racers who want to run fast lean on their combos. With minimal restrictions you can get pretty creative with the limitation you can only run 6.00.
     
    #77
  18. scott hall

    scott hall Member

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    I'm here to post with Will's opinion about the Screw Blower Deal. I run a PSi Screw Blower - a "B" Model for you historians, and I can't imagine a easier to run, no maintenance, no modification needed blower.
    Yes, I have to recert it every 3 years at $1500 a hit, and I have to recert my restraints every 2 years. Other than that...it takes half the power to run, makes twice the boost, and to powerful to run off a two step for running Top Dragster.....
    Im glad to see all the makes and models of Roots Blowers out there being used. Many of my customers are doing a great job with blowers and fuel systems for them. Im really impressed with the Pro Charger stuff also.....they hold the greatest potential.
    But for all these people who have a anti-screw outlook on them have obviously not run one, or been around one in there lives. Thats fine....some of us remember when a roots was all that was available. And we also saw first hand just how great a piece a Screw blower became.
    Will and I are in similar situations...we have older TAD chassis with older TAD engine combos that have a new life over here in Top Dragster. My engine is a 388" Small Block that has been detuned by 25% to run 6.20's. It ran 5.80s 20 years ago...and it deserves to be out running in this class. It was 1/3 the price to buy the stuff used, but with time and new parts has become a great car.
    My question is: Do you want super comp cars that speeding up and are trying to be Top Dragsters or would you rather see old Top Alcohol Dragsters slow down to become Top Dragsters?

    Scott Hall
    scotth@moroso.com
     
    #78
  19. Sheppard racing

    Sheppard racing New Member

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    Rat Rod, we raced TD for years with a 48 fiat, blown SBC, glide. In Canada, we had fans looking forward to us showing up, they loved our car. But as more cubes and nitrous were being used, we couldn't make some fields. Should the fast qualifiers be told to stay home so we could race? So, sold the roller and got a dragster. Then eventually, after 3 cranks, and broken aluminum block, we went with a HEMI and lenco drive. Between us, Troy Stone, Fast Eddie, Mr. Zombie, and others, you could qualify 1,2,3 easily. And be consistent and win!
    Believe me, it's nice to know if you have problems, a 1000' pass will get you qualified. As Will said, you're not even leaning on it, we had a standard helix blower on it at first!
    Just my $.00001 as usual.
     
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  20. Sheppard racing

    Sheppard racing New Member

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    Scott, I don't think they should let short sc cars go that fast. Not safe in my opinion. They weren't built for that purpose.
     
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