Observations on improving the promotion of alcohol racing

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Feb 21, 2005.

  1. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Bruce I've bought plenty of Shirts from Alky racers, Wayne Stoelkel's Boogieman, Mert Littlefield, I do agree with your opinion that TARA (Do they even exist anymore?) should address the costs issue, I doubt you'll get everyone to agree on every suggestion. But I do think the Apparel sales thing is a Great point!
     
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  2. bruce mullins

    bruce mullins Top Dragster

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    easy darren, my statement was directed about the average spectator that walks around. by the time he or she even finds the alky pits in the next galaxy they have already spent $25. i would love to see the sales be allowed.
     
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  3. M Tigges

    M Tigges TAFC

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    REV limiters, buy screw tommorow.
     
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  4. Barry H

    Barry H Member

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    Not a necessarily the only fix, not meant to be negative, but an observation: In Division 7, there are not too many tracks that promote their division events. Sonoma does a great job putting fans in the seats on July 4. Sacramento, Phoenix do not have good attendance at division events, but at match races (promoted with radio, news) the seats are full. With help from Glendora, TARA, etc.. Maybe the track operators will see that it is in their best interest to promote the Alcohol cars as a great show and fill the seats.
     
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  5. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    I wasn't there but last year at the D 5 race at Denver, the track basically gave away like 20,000 tickets. Not sure if it was a promotion through a Auto parts store or what. But I saw a pic that Looked every bit like a Natl. event crowdwise. Bruce I did agree with you as far as Alky teams being allowed to sell apparel
     
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  6. The Zone

    The Zone Member

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    Division 6 allows any team to sell t-shirts or whatever out of your trailer at divisional events or national opens.

    TARA had a great platform, but it comes down to the racers supporting it. When less than 40 racers joined out of 200+ competitors, the 2 classes will always struggle. Pro Mods as a whole are unified, and they will be succesful even with three completely differnet sets of rules (INHRA, AMS and outlaw).
    An outside series sponsor (like Kenny Knowling has done) would certainly change the fortunes and participation in the TA classes.

    This is a good topic and the racers themself have to be accountable and have to be willing to help put the two classes on the right track.

    Dean
     
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  7. Barry H

    Barry H Member

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    I am only a crew guy that has been around the alcohol classes for about 20 years or so, but from a business standpoint there are some problems with this class. Some from Glendora, some from the Divisional track operators and some from us. I have spent countless hours coming up with sponsor proposals for some teams, with when you get down to it, very little to offer a major corporation. There are a lot of comparisons made between NASCAR and NHRA, most comparing the (pro) sportsman classes to the Busch series. I hate to admit that NASCAR (and Busch) offer a lot more to Corporate America than NHRA can. Before you bash the messenger, I think that the fact of being able to see your logo go around and around for a few hours, the mind-set of the advertisers is that there is more value (at whatever the cost) in NASCAR than in NHRA.
    The ways to combat that mind-set is to give more "face time" to NHRA. Don Schumacher could possibly be on the right track, as much as I despise multi-car teams, to provide that exposure. There is almost always one of his cars on the track (all with at least some exposure to ALL of the sponsors). Torco, this year has expanded their sponsorship base giving a lot more exposure to their products.
    Maybe the best way to get exposure is to find a sponsor that would work well with Lucas (who is a GREAT asset)to expand the benefits to the class as well as the sponsors. There is such a limited market for after-market car parts now, that the traditional sponsors are very hard to get, on top of them having very small budgets.
    How would the teams feel about having a series patterned after Busch, where we qualify on Friday and race on Saturday between the pro qualifing sessions? That should give the TV groups enough footage for our show.
    How would teams feel about having a National points race, using only points gained a national events and a seperate divisional points race using divisional tracks as the basis of points.
    Bring back match races. The exposure to fans is huge! The "rivalries" are what made for a good show.
    The idea to have a TARA shirt trailer is great, how can it be expanded to do more? What else can TARA do to help the racers. First, I agree with Dean that it needs more members. It is difficult to be the voice, if you are not a majority. The concept of TARA is great, but it may need to expand more to marketing, rather than to have the "image" of it's purpose of obtaining parity in the TAD class. I am not a member of TARA, I sent probably 3 e-mails to join, but never heard anything back so I gave up. I am not bashing TARA, I realize that it is an enormous task that they undertook with no budget, no staff and apparently not a hell of a lot of support. If there is a way I could help, send me a message. Thanks for letting me vent..Barry
     
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  8. Les Mellows

    Les Mellows New Member

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    "i would love to see this new rev limiter rule put on us. we all know the rpms is what has put the parts attrition through the roof. if rev limiters were put on at 9400 ,breakage would come down. i went a 5.71 and shifted my car at 9200 . i am sure cars could still run 60's. fans have labled us as leakers and as long as the big teams turn them 10,000 and higher everyone has to to run fast. some of the big teams run over parts and don't care. all that does is make all alcohol racers look bad. some tracks hate divisionals because of the leakers.i hate that lable but until something is done to calm parts breakage i think we are stuck with a lable."

    "the average spectator that walks around. by the time he or she even finds the alky pits in the next galaxy they have already spent $25"
    __________________________________________________

    Bruce , great idea on the limiter. If this did happen this may bring the sanctioning bodies closer to having a universal TAFC class where crossing over isn't such a knee in the berries for the loyal roots followers and the transient racers from each local area.
    At all IHRA events you are allowed to sell non conflicting souvenirs from your trailer to promote yourself and it can be very lucrative if the products are good quality.
    Bruce, don't take it personal where they park you,in 2 posts about IHRA and NHRA you have made reference to the fact you are parked a long ways from the front or flow or ?? If Alcohol cars don't soon stand together for change in the way we run the program, like the Pro Modifieds have had to we will all be complaining how far out in the spectator parking lot we are and how heavy the cooler is !
     
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  9. bruce mullins

    bruce mullins Top Dragster

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    les, let me explane myself on the differences of the 2 posts on parking. at the ihra race, i was there early enough to get a good spot. but since i was not an 'IHRA BOY ',i was told there wasn't enough room for me and i was parked past the scales.at least in nhra they place all tha alky cars together and it is usually around the finish line which is fine with me cause i like to watch the nitro car flames turn green at night. i also don't think a rev limiter will even the playing fields between the santions. on my .71 run there was still more left and i think mid 60's are capable even at 92 percent overdrive. no disrespect but a roots car won't be able to do that. people still don't realize that a screw blower does not hurt parts any more than a roots. what hurts motors is bad tune ups and high rpm's . when i ran a roots combo i would leave the starting line at 5500 and shift at 8500. i ran bunches of 5.90's and quite a few 80's, and never ,yes,never broke a rod in 6 years. this is why i think a limiter would bring down the costs.

    [ February 25, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: bruce mullins ]
     
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  10. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    If a rev limiter were made manditory, it would have to be done in conjunction with an overdrive change back to 125%. I can show you a run we made back in 1999 against Bucky at Mission with Pete Swayne where we ran a 5.64. The engine never turned higher than 8,600 RPM from startline to finishline.

    Otherwise, don't mess with it.
     
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  11. ttutubono

    ttutubono Guest

    Randy, thats what Bruce and I posted, you have to go back a few posts, in the #1 column Gene Terenzio Sr.
     
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  12. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    a couple of things to address...

    marketing. barry, you state that in nascar, companies get to see their logo on the track for a couple of hours. however to television viewers and fans at the track, their logo is mixed in with 43 other cars. on the tv front, i think the figure is the top 15 get 90% of the tv time. so if you're not in the top 15, you're splitting a smaller segment of tv time with more cars.

    drag racing is the only motorsport where all eyes are on you for a focused amount of time. tv and fans alike are watching the pair at the line. whether its bud vs miller lite, castrol vs. matco, jegs vs summit, those sponsors get focused tv and track time. thats a strength of drag racing certainly anyone needs to include in their sponsor proposals...

    two. rev limiters. bad idea. they are hard to police, its not at all good for a motor to hit the limiter. they are not accurate. i've seen chips vary a lot. 125? i think it was certainly better, but then everyone has to spend the same 10k they did switching to 92 over to redo fuel systems and trans ratios, pulleys, etc. for as many people that would be happy with the switch, there would be one unhappy. some of those unhappy ones would quit, and this class desperately doesn't need anyone to quit. i think one trend within the class that may help is the trend towards smaller motors/smaller stroke. the shorter the stroke, the easier the rpm is on parts. some argue the rpm is more important that the cubes and the argument of cid vs boost per cid....

    three, TARA. TARA is certainly alive and well. TARA actually did take the Tshirt booth issue to NHRA last year and it was shot down because it was a 'money losing venture.' TARA needs membership and participation. You can log on to their website Top Alcohol Racers Association to find out how to join.

    I think the T shirt stand needs to be 'sold' to NHRA rather than requested. Regardless of whether we make or lose money, its another 'revenue stream' (current corporate buzz word these days) for NHRA in that they will sell another vendor spot, and they'll take their cut of every sale just like they do with every other vendor.
     
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  13. JJ Kumre

    JJ Kumre Member

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    Some are not gonna like where I start this but follow me for a minute or 2...
    We need to take a page from NASCAR, and how they promoe and push hte Busch series as in essence the Lucas Oil TAD and TA/FC cars are the Busch series of NHRA.
    What does this take, 1) a concerted effort by both NHRA and Lucas as well as ESPN.
    Using the fact that almost all of todays stars came from the Alky cars at some point.
    NHRA working with sponsors who cant swing the full Pro budget to get involved in the Alky cars, as opposed to keeping the sponsors for themselves...
    Pushing the Alky cars as the future of the sport and the Alky starts as the furure, using tech info to show the simularities and differences of the 2 types of cars compares to Pro cars...
    Using starts like Morgan Lucas, Dixon, Capps, Ashley Force, etc as the faces of today tomorrow and yesterday to help promote the direction of the class...

    The racers can't do it alone the NHRA and major sponsors and stars-teams need to help...
     
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  14. bruce mullins

    bruce mullins Top Dragster

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    will , haven't you read about the new limiter for fuel cars? they simply retard the timing instead of interupting spark. how difficult will it be to check at tech for the box, which is a sealed unit from msd. and a quick look at the scales. gee the same way nhra will police the fuel cars. second ,leave the overdrive at 92 percent. pretty soon the fields will resemble div.2 everywhere and its not because jay runs everywhere else. everyone talks about making the classes better , just what do you classify as better? more teams will fall to the side as costs goes up, and others try to make parts last to long . out of all these posts i have yet to read a post that will help. t-shirts cost 2-4 thousand to get a large batch and set ups. now you need to sell them, is this the answer to sponsorship? i doubt it, it might pay for dinner at the end of the day ,but thats all. fans call the alky cars leakers, and divisionals don't care for us. so if nobody agrees on anything , nothing will ever change. right? eventually nhra will impose a rule that none of us will like and ihra will probably get rid of the class all together and we will have nothing but a pretty car to take to shows.i love running a funny car and would gladdly donate my left *** to make things better but if nobody else does, why should i.
     
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  15. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    bruce,

    yes i've read about the new rev boxes. over the past few seasons, combinations have came about that have taken the sting of the rpm increase of the 92 od rule. supposedly the bnr/veney combo's are only turning 9600 and running 5.50's. better rods, pistons and fuel systems have helped the brad motors live at higher rpm's, along with the fontana's. teams are also building motors with smaller strokes.

    the concept of changing rules to save racers money typically hasn't worked too well. in several cases it cost them money. look at the 92 od rule, cost a lot of money. the blower freeze in 97 stopped the blower war, but ended up costing both a/f and blown racers money in the lack of parity and rule changes associated with it. secondly, how much would it save?

    maybe i'm wrong, and this rev limiter would be a quick and easy fix. i'm not for it though.

    as far as t-shirt sales, it was never meant as a substitute to sponsorship, rather a supplement. if a sponsor asks you why they can't make shirts like john force, or ashley force has for sale, you got a mess to explain. it also helps promote the class. i think the results may be surprising, and may buy a little more than dinner. some fans may be more inclined to buy alcohol shirts. at any rate, not every team would be required to do it, and there would certainly need to be a quality standard in place.

    i certainly appreciate your feedback bruce. we just need to hear from more racers.
     
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  16. ttutubono

    ttutubono Guest

    Will said,,,,yes i've read about the new rev boxes. over the past few seasons, combinations have came about that have taken the sting of the rpm increase of the 92 od rule. supposedly the bnr/veney combo's are only turning 9600 and running 5.50's.
    There ONLY turning 9.600 rpm? 526 cu.in hemi`s were not ment to be spun at 9.600 rpm`s, you young guys must think your running small block chevys, Manzo, and many others were running 5.50`s 5 years ago and only turning the motor to 8.500, the only reason the motors are being turned to that rpm,#1 I want to win and I got tons of money,#2 hey thats what I here everyone else is doing,#3 I have stock in brad`s, bnr,fontana. The point is that rpm`s are what`s killing these motors, you say it will cost $10.000 to go back to 125%, It`s still cheaper that blowing up a motor and what ever else goes when it dose at 9.600, plus nozzels and jets and pullys don`t cost that much, most of the guys that are running now were running at 125%. Gene Terenzio Sr.

    [ March 04, 2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: ttutubono ]
     
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  17. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Tubuno, I don't know for sure by any means. But I think a 5.50 while turning just 8,600 is Impossible! I guess RG or WOZ can answer that better than I can.
     
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  18. Gerry Woz

    Gerry Woz Comp Eliminator

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    I wanted to stay out of this one because I've stated my opinion against rev limiters prior and I don't want to rehash that one again..
    as far as Manzo and "Many" others running 5.50's 5 years ago while never reving over 8500 rpms...Maybe Manzo he's the best for sure..if he did do it.. I would say it was under "World Record" atmospheric and track conditions..the kind that only happen once or twice a year..I'm also assuming it was under the 125% overdrive limits...at least a 300 hundred horsepower advantage in relation to the current overdrive limits. And I'm not positive but I believe there are maybe 20 cars +/-, which have ever run in the 5.50's to date...so I would like to know "Who" the many others were..no disrespect to them....I can also state with some accuracy that the gearing, both Trans and Rear, fuel volumes, compression, bore and stroke, clutch and clutch setups are so completely different that the costs to revert to the prior overdrive percentage would be a substantial financial burden to all except the few(Dozen) Millionaires we have gracing our beloved Top Alcohol Classes...shoot I wish I was a millionaire too [​IMG] ...but we know that's not going to happen...man to run 5.50's at 8500 rpm max limit, you would have to start locking up your clutch around 7800 to 8000 to take advantage of a little "one to one" with the motor..as far as present day motors hitting 9600 rpm's..why does that scare you?..I assure you it's the norm..9600 is workable if you shift that way everytime..but what human is that repeatable?..that rpm in our case is definitely on the low side and wouldn't even take the new bearing coating off or take the shine from a sparkplug...the Miner fontana combo is extremely rugged and rpm friendly..like no combo I've ever seen before...it just doesn't hurt it to spin significantly higher than "9600" rpm..you don't have to rev it higher..but if you do it does it without disintegrating..I can tell you that we have run 5.50's to very low 60's with first gear shifts ranging from 8900 to 9600, but most of the times second gear is much higher...I'm not telling you exactly [​IMG] and I must reiterate that this method of shifting >9600 rpm does not contribute to motor carnage typically seen related to high revving ..Bob Miner has made considerable progress in advancing the design and structural integrity of this engine ..finally, All things being equal, burning more fuel volume efficiently is equal to more power..to lower the rpm with the same overdrive..compression etc, means you need to lower the fuel volume in the engine resulting in less available power..(That's why I hate rev limiters) :mad:
    well that's my 2.5 cents worth ;)
     
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  19. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Gerry, I remember last year at Vegas Shawn Jones Banged the blower so Hard it knocked the Body off the car. I think his Dad had mentioned somewhere that he broke a spragg or something sending the Motor to like 11,000! I wonder if a Rev Limiter would have saved that?
     
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  20. Gerry Woz

    Gerry Woz Comp Eliminator

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    Yes I was there too, and yes I do believe it was tranny initiated. In that instance I'm not sure how helpful it would have been as the motor is instantly "Disconnected" from any load which would serve to hold the motor back from out of control RPM. Revving up to say 10,000 rpm under "Load" is much different than instant free-wheeling as in Shawns case, I wonder at what rpm the sprag?..let go.....perhaps Shawn could help us with this ...the interesting thing about rev limiters is that on the one instance we "hit it" at the top of second gear, the boost pretty much stayed at it's same level...even though the ignition cut out for 4 tenths of a second and the clutch lost lockup...still ran 5.62 @ 255mph :D
     
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