Is TAD becoming A/Fuel dragster?

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by rb0804, May 25, 2018.

  1. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

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    seriously, where is the parody? Is NHRA paying attention to the stellar numbers being put up by A/Fuelers? Will there be rule changes after this year? Are they waiting for an A/Fuel car to win a championship? I think every A/fuel combo in the country frequents the low 30’s and dips into the .20’s. Meanwhile back at the ranch, there are only 4 blown cars in the country that can accomplish the same. Is NHRA paying attention that by trying to keep cost down they are driving them up?

    The Alcohol funny car and Dragster engines are going to be useless in the near future as manufacturers gear up to make more and more 4.9 bore space Hemi’s for promod and “outlaw” stuff. You used to be able to sell your old Alky stuff to the Promod crowd or possibly but one from them. Switch gears and the promod boys and gals can no longer keep up while running the traditional 4.8 bore space stuff. Now I guess it will go to the top dragster or sportsman crowd for pennies on the dollar of original investment, if they decide that they even want something like that.

    The 2” lifter bore space deal is the stupidest thing on the planet, the blown cars can’t keep up so we turn them higher and higher and grenading these things all over the race track because the valve train is the Achilles heel of the Hemi engine. We could fix this problem if only we were able to spread the lifter bores out, but it’s more cost effective to scatter all your hard earned parts all over the racing surface.

    No auto shift and no two step. The A-fuel cars don’t have to hold their car at a certain rpm and drag it in. Hell, they don’t even have to swap feet, they let the clutch out, bump it in, mash the loud pedal and hold on for the ride. A blown car has to hold he RPM at 6500, bump it in without throwing your leg off the clutch or letting the RPM drop, get a clean foot swap without leading one way or the other, hit the 1-2 shift, hit the 2-3 shift. Can’t we level the playing field a little bit by allowing the blown cars to leave the line with an RPM control and make it just as easy to shift as it’s A/fuel counter part? Let’s say our driver is having a bad day and they leave low, lead with the clutch foot and sort of bog the engine. It pinches a couple of rings because Fuel flow is low due to lack of stage rpm, it runs down through there and proceeds to burn down the face of the piston. Pistons/rods/ and head repair are in the future. Again, not cost effective, but we have the technology to be able to leave at the same RPM every time, but we can’t use it. Let’s say the driver has an issue seeing the shift light, maybe the sun is in his/her eyes and it bangs off the rev limiter, kills the valve springs and grenades the engine. Where is the cost effectiveness in that? Again we have the technology to fix that and we would be manually shifting the car exactly the same amount of times that an A/Fueler does. ZERO.

    Transmissions. We can’t run a Liberty transmission because it has less rotating parts and would propose a performance advantage over other transmissions. Then everyone would have to buy one to keep up. The reality being that the Liberty has a clean neutral on the lift at the stripe and would save on blower, blower belt, and connecting rod wear. Think about it, if the NHRA safety box kills the engine/fuel and the driver is unable to get the clutch in, let’s say maybe the counterweight on the levers won’t let him/her. The engine would still be rotating and the blower is then runs dry, without any fuel to cool or lubricate it. Think about how your blower looks when you send it in. Does it look like it has been rubbing the rotors or the case when you pull the hat off? When during starting of the engine or during the run would the blower have lack of lubrication and cooling (ie fuel)? The only answer I can come up with is decel. To me this is a huge safety concern and financial burden to teams when they send their blower back to get re-certed. In addition to all of this, the connecting rods are trying to blow out the top of the engine on decleration. If I can save 6-8k everytime I send my blower in or if I can get another 10-20 runs out of a set of rods (at 1k a set), or I can get more life out of my blower belts, the 10k up front for a transmission doesn’t seem that bad to me.

    Is anyone listening? NHRA? Sportsman Council? Does anyone care? Just my rant. Thanks for reading.
     
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  2. MaineAlkyFan

    MaineAlkyFan Active Member

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    Thanks for writing. I learned a lot.

    Chris Saulnier - Team Tigges
    Mechanic Falls, Maine
     
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  3. Tad117

    Tad117 Member

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    I am just some old timer but everything you want to change is what makes driving an alcohol car fun. Reving it up on the starting line knowing when to shift it once your driver gets enough laps they should know when the shift light is going to come on in relation to where they are on the track and what gears are in the trans and if he or she cant push the clutch pedal in get them in the gym or change the pedal location. Currently there are two blown cars in the top five and three in the top ten and i can assure you that their blowers go back to psi or to kevin way before it is ever due for recertification.
     
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  4. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Old guard vs new racers.

    This is a real problem facing Top Alcohol right now. There's veteran racers who have ran the class for years and don't really like the influx of technology the classes have seen in the past 10 years or more.

    For along time, you ran BAE 5 heads, and you tuned the car pretty much with clutch, gear ratio and maybe a leanout or two. If you were in the know, you probably had a better blower than most and enjoyed a performance advantage because of it. Those also were the days of pre-lube, pre lube and pre lube again the valve train. Valve covers off fast to check and see if you mushroomed a push rod or got a lifter, lost a lash cap, etc. $1800 Titanium valve springs were mandatory for a while. I don't miss a lot of those things.

    Fast forward to today, and the cars are much more technical. It's very hard to run a car without some sort of retard box. Some make big swings, others make small swings but it is very hard to run with the cars that are using timing control when you are just running it old school.

    Head technology has advanced, intake technology, injectors, blowers etc. Let's not forget later model clutches that are becoming more prevalent.

    Also can't forget about those pesky torque converter cars that have the audacity to actually try to be competitive. Those cars were never meant to be any more than a novelty for those who weren't man enough to drive a clutch, right?

    Having grown up around the Top Alcohol classes and busted my ass to eventually be a part of them, I certainly understand the nostalgia of making it like the 'good ol days.' I also understand that we are just about the last class that the driver has to swap feet and make the shifts on their own. And that certainly carries merit.

    The pro's and con's of any new technology is the cost to upgrade vs cost of ownership, and how many racers does it leave behind?

    Meanwhile, the questions become a moot point as the number of cars dwindle.

    I think the decision makers have a handful of veteran racers they consult on these types of issues. I would say the majority are either what you would call 'old guard' or have a vested interest in not allowing new technology.

    If you are a bad ass on the starting line, you don't want new technology to lessen that advantage.

    If you have a performance advantage, you don't want new technology make it easier for new teams to close the gap.

    If you are very skilled at making your clutch perform like a well oiled machine, you don't want anything that will make it easier for a new team or converters to compete.

    So, do I think 2 steps and auto shifts should be legal? Not necessarily, but I think it's a conversation worth having if it would help bring more racers to the class. There's plenty of racers in the TD ranks with the means to step up, but the idea of a clutch scares them as much as the idea of having to run a converter scares a clutch guy. They have come up the bracket ranks and have probably never shifted a race car manually. Late nights of 4-6 guys fixing blown up shit also discourages them. That's not even considering how far they have to drive to race them.

    As much as we bitch, honestly for heads up racing, Top Alcohol is pretty good bang for the buck. But at some point if we don't look at changes we will be a chapter in the history book rather than a page in a national event program.
     
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  5. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Good read, Will Hanna.

    After racing TA/FC for almost 25 years before retiring I guess I could be considered "old guard." But I'm one of the guys who said the next chance I get I want to try a torque converter in mine after playing with Dan Nickelson's pro mod Viper. I was also one of the guys pushing for A/Fuel in TA/FC back when we were already running mid 5.50's almost 15 years ago in my car. I'm also the guy who said if you can't do a burn out without a safety pin on the throttle cable at the injector you don't belong in one of these cars. BTW, some of our greatest and most fun memories of TA/FC were those "Late nights of 4-6 guys fixing blown up sh#t".

    I thought I quit, but you know how that goes. I just bought a Rick Jones pro stock Camaro with very few runs on it for top sportsman and I'm eventually going to run a big block Chevy with a procharger on alcohol, and I'm driving it. I'm hoping to get the "senior discount" on all my parts. It'll have a torque converter, launch rpm limiter, line lock, auto shift and all the stuff the real TA/FC racers loathe. But my understanding is I can run an entire season running 6.50's doing nothing more than changing the oil and manning the BBQ between runs. In my younger years this wouldn't cut it. But at this stage of my life it's better than standing around in the alky pits with nothing to do, or hanging out at the senior centers.

    All this to say, I vote for NOT dumbing down TA/FC to the lowest common denominator. Take the safety pins off. Vote no on auto shifters. Get rid of the fancy electronic stuff. We HAD to run air timers for years because NHRA claimed they couldn't police the electronic gizmos. Now the cat is out of the bag I suppose. Might as well allow electronic fuel injection too. I would be all for that I suppose. At any rate, after I get my butt handed to me first round in T/S I'll be hanging around the alky pits looking for something to do. I still love the class almost as much as life itself. Always have, always will.

    My new (to me) car:

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Maybe the compromise is letting some more automation into TAD and leaving TAFC more of a driver-intensive class.

    I agree with Randy on TAFC- I don't think you get into TAFC unless you are really into what TAFC is, as it is. It's billed as one of the hardest cars in drag racing to drive.

    With that being said, despite the fact I think Miller Lite is some of the greatest beer put in a can, some people still like Bud Light. Others like Coors Light. For a lot of people, a dragster is the ultimate hot rod. It's more of a precision style of driving vs a FC. When I explain the difference to someone who has ever seen a rodeo, I tell them it's the difference in bull riding and saddle bronc riding. Both very tough to be very good at, but sometimes the bull riding is just about making it 8 seconds where most of the time saddle bronc is about scoring points.

    So if we were to make it legal to have 2 steps on blown clutch cars and auto shift legal, would it help the class? Would either change make it less expensive to run a car?

    Two step - A two step would practically eliminate driver error from the launch process. You would leave at a pre programmed rpm and more than that, it would take the foot swap out of the driver equation. Where you set the clutch switch to release would be a tuning/set up setting.

    In my experience, I have not seen a driver leaving low lead to a burned piston. Not saying it can't happen, but it's rare in my opinion. It's also hard to say what kind of blower belt life a clutch car would see. There is a chance the two step could increase the cost of operation.

    I really don't know how many new drivers that would attract to the category. Couple that with the fact you can get a new driver dialed in pretty quick with a detent clip, I think the gains would be marginal at best. If swapping feet is a deal breaker for a driver, they are probably going to do a converter car or A/Fuel anyway.

    Auto shift? I think you can make more of a case here. Much like Pro Stock, a driver that can hit their shift points enjoys a real advantage. I would also say the margin for error is as small as it's ever been. The fast cars are shifting between 10,500 and 11,000. There's no real good answer to help you if you miss high. Set the rev limiter too low and you're going to wreck shit because you're hitting an 11,000 to 11,200 rev chip. Set it higher so you don't hit it and inevitably it's going to bite you when the shift light doesn't work or you have driveline failure and go to 11,800-12,000+. Let's also point out that shift lights are probably one of the least reliable parts on a car (maybe we need to cycle out shift lights more often).

    It's just not like it was in earlier years when the shift points were lower. The rate of acceleration is much faster.

    If implemented, one down side is some of the simpler auto shift systems will simply shift the car when 'x' rpm is reached. In the pro mod world, there has been several crashes from a driver either keeping their foot in it while smoking the tires...the car upshifts and generates more wheelspeed.

    The downside it takes more of the driver element out of the competitive equation.

    I have no doubt this would save most blown teams money over time. Want to shift at 10,600? Set the autoshift to shift there (obviously compensate for delay) and the rev limiter at 10,800. I know even the best drivers miss their shifts high.

    I think you could also make a case autoshift might bring some people into the class. I have talked to more than one Top Dragster driver that stated the risk of over revving a motor would be a major concern.

    If we wound the clock back, and put the current blown alcohol dragster into the 1980's or 90's, would it be as attractive? Obviously I'm not talking about a performance standpoint, but from a driving standpoint. You left at a lot lower rpm back then and shifted way lower. You also shifted much earlier in the run. The acceleration rate of the engine at those rpms and in those days was much slower.

    How many racers left the class in the early to mid 90's when pulling the clutch and dropping the pan every run became the norm and necessary?

    That's one of the reasons why I have said the converter cars need to be competitive. The converter cars are the most likely to attract Top Dragster racers - it's what they know and what they are familiar with. Let's all face it, a converter would make servicing the car at the track and at home much easier. It's hard to find crew help.

    If we don't get new racers into the classes, it will dwindle into a situation similar to Comp is in right now. The car counts are so low, nobody wants to invest the money to build a car for a class that seems to be on the way out. Even if NHRA says they have no intention to get rid of Comp.

    Before anyone chimes in 'well if they don't like it as it is'...remember there are a bunch of different ways to go heads up racing these days. In the 80's 'glory days' if you wanted to race heads up, you pretty much had Comp, Top Alcohol, Pro Stock and Top Fuel.

    Now there is a number of options to an up and coming racer that wants to step up to a heads up category. Pro Mod, Radial and No Prep give a racer a number of options. Top Dragster and Top Sportsman give some racers enough 'go fast' to whet their whistle.

    As much as we bitch about payout, short of Top Fuel, we have the best low end payout of any 'sportsman' heads up class out there. You won't find a local Pro Mod show that pays $750 to qualify. Not even PDRA pays the $1700 to qualify we get at a national event. You're damn sure not going to go to a sports bar for lunch and see them racing up on a TV. I know we are on FS2 now, but I have went to places like Buffalo Wild Wings and randomly caught a Top Alcohol show on one of the TV's.

    And we have Wally. No matter how much one of them other deals is hyped, there's nothing like racing for a Wally.

    So we need to take a hard look and see if some changes need to be made. We need to promote the fact we have some things in Top Alcohol they can't get elsewhere.
     
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  7. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Regarding two steps and launch aides...

    Having had 9 or so different drivers in my cars, some heavy hitters, some newbies, I can tell you that without making one change to the car except the driver we went from tire shake every run to 5.50's back to back when 5.50's were rare. It's all in the way the driver handles the timing of his/her foot swap (throttle and clutch pedal). And we aren't talking tenths of a second. Will will tell you there are several ways to determine the way someone foot swaps these things just by looking at the computer. Fuel flow, fuel pressure movement or drop before and after driveshaft rpm changes, engine rpm itself, and lack of or too much delay in any combination of all of these when overlaying them on the graph. It's actually even more complicated than this but that's the easiest way to explain it. I've seen people pulling power back because they are misreading what's actually going on. I remember in the beginning one time thinking the track was an issue. Then Frank Manzo would pull up in the same lane we sucked in and rip everyone's throat's out. So much for blaming your problems on the track.

    At our last race (2012 Winternationals) my car shook 4 runs in a row and was running 5.70's pedalling it. Daniel Oliver was sick that weekend. Try as he might he was weak and not coordinating himself at the swap. After racking my brain overnight Saturday night to Sunday morning after we somehow beat Annie Whitely first round I made significant changes I wouldn't normally have to do to the set up of the car to compensate for his throttle/clutch pedal timing, and the next run it ran a 5.52. Then we won the event. All because of managing just the first two tenths of a second of a run.

    After doing all this with several drivers including being fortunate enough to have guys like Marc White, Larry Miner, Daniel Oliver and John Lombardo Jr in my cars, I've concluded that, including myself as a former driver (who sucked), there are only a dozen or so people who can really drive these cars and are deadly consistant which make tuning a lot easier. These include but not limited to Westerfield and Bellemeur, who never drove for me. The rest like me go for funny car rides. If adding driver aides to get them moving down the track without body breaking tire shake keeps the class healthy I'm all for it. A/Fuel has opened up the TAD class to different talent. But guys like Chris Demke, Joey Severance, Shawn Cowie, etc. still get my vote as the driver's driver in TAD.
     
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  8. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

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    There are several drivers that I can think of off the top of my head that used to run blown cars and have made the switch to nitro. Maybe some of them will chime in with reasoning of the switch? Is it because they are quicker? Easier to drive? More cost friendly? I was kind of hoping that current drivers would post up and voice their opinion. I’m sure the A/fuel driver/tuners think the current rules package is just fine.

    For the most part no one is going to run a blown car unless they are a die hard blower person. I think just the idea of having to shift the car along with cost of the potential carnage that can ensue from a missed shift scares others away. Not to mention it’s hard as hell to bump a car in without dropping engine RPM, meanwhile some A/Fueler in the other lane is trying to hang you out.

    What about relaxing the rules a bit about the OEM style transmissions, ring gears and block mounted starters? If someone has a de-tuned screw blown top dragster that runs 6.0X’s all the time and the Alcohol field is light at their regional, they are unable to compete in TAD under the current rules package.

    All’s I’m saying is blower cars can’t keep up. It would be nice if NHRA were to adjust the rules to help the blower cars out a little. How many blown cars made the field in the record setting Virgina Regional? I’m not asking to run a lockup clutch or a 5 speed transmission. Just asking to loosen the rules a little bit so the cars can run a little quicker and a little more reliable.

    In response to Randy’s post, I really don’t think it would be a bad idea for them to allow electronic fuel injection into the class. That’s kind of like NASCAR and pro stock holding on to special carburetor technology that no one would use or pick up unless they are in that particular industry. Electronics and converters are the wave of the future wheter you are in denial about it or not. I’m still waiting for the day that batteries and electric motors take over, it’s coming! You heard it here first.

    With all that being said, you look around and see what F1 is able to accomplish; over 50% thermal efficiency out of an internal combustion engine and its taken a lifetime for a Hemi engine to just get oiling to the pushrods so they don’t burn? Are you kidding me? OEM manufactures are making direct injection engines and people are hot rodding them and going fast with them. So there you have it, all these gadgets and gizmos available and we are over here with mechanical injection running our stuff in and out of detonation, trying to hold it all together for a little over 5 seconds. No two step, no auto shift, no sequential transmissions, no electronic injection.

    I don’t know if you guys realize this, but they have nostalgia classes where old timers can race “like it used to be”. They even have a rear engine nostalgia top fuel if that suits your fancy.

    Think they had a conversation like this when the 426 came out and people started running the “new technology” over that old 392 or 417?
     
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  9. Tad117

    Tad117 Member

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    There have been a few rule changes over the years that have been made to increase car counts that never did. Look at the fact that randy who forgot more then most will ever know decided to not come back to the class. Personal i think the parity is pretty close i am o ly watching from a distance so dont know how many parts they are goi g thriugh but i think it pretty impressive the numbers the top alcohol cars are running run 220 to the 1/8 and pick up 57 58 on the top end is stout in my mind. In my oppinion auto shift in a bad lane could lead to a much worse outcome then a bad shift
     
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  10. vamcaptain

    vamcaptain Member

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    Will, maybe you could chime in or do a episode on the throttle/clutch switch-over at launch. Could it be a significant tuning factor?
     
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  11. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    The rule change from 125% overdrive to 92% in 2001 was supposed to bring in new teams. LOL
     
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  12. Eric Strandberg

    Eric Strandberg New Member

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    I have a near complete new Nostalgia Funny Car-NHRA Heritage Series Legal-and the ONLY thing no$talgia about it is the Plymouth Arrow body.Could have built a new TAD or a TAFC for sure. It is definatley not what it used to be.
    Putting something together is one thing,then having the funds to feed it parts to keep up with the competition that has that disposable income is a whole other issue for most.
    Which brings up the point with the earlier reference to F1.
    - Four tire changes and fuel in less than six seconds. Telematics.
    Hundreds of team and crew members and a racing budget per team that is more than some smaller countries GNP - $250 MILLION plus. Per season.
    Be careful of what you wish for!
     
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  13. Blake

    Blake Member

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    Here is my take on allowing Electronic Fuel Injection in the class. Besides all of the "old guy" issues (which are very real), it is a learning curve. What I don't want EFI in Top Alcohol to do is make everybody dependent on having to add a guy to the crew that know how to run the EFI system. I would hope that, if trained a member of the current crew could do this. With EFI the time saving between rounds is large and important. If done right you will not blow near as much shit up and that will more the pay for the EFI system and attract new teams to the field because of the reduced cost to run a system. I do not believe it should be done like Pro Stock where only one ECU is allowed. I believe it should be completely open, run EFI or not run EFI should be a teams decision. I can say this a correctly tuned quality EFI system will outrun any car currently in the field right now. That might be a bit scary for those who are on top of the field but, most of their knowledge will transfer over to a good EFI system, less parts breakage will in the long run be huge for the class and NHRA that struggles to keep their schedule on time as TV will become a larger and larger portion of every bodies revenue. Would you rather watch this street outlaw crap or follow a few Top Alcohol car around the country that are dipping into the 4 second quarter mile numbers. I do like the idea of only allowing the TAD class to run EFI and keep TAFC as is and allow an "old guy" class and an "up and coming" class. If EFI or new rules fails they can go back to where they were and live out this slow dying class which is a true shame because in reality TAD and TAFC should be competing with the Nitro classes for popularity especially because they run in the divisional races which gives more fans a greater chance to see these cars run in the 4s and that is pretty damned exciting and should draw much larger crowds to the tracks and increase the chance of TV time.

    In all honesty I design and program ComSyncEFI systems and have worked with Austin Coil for 10 years 12 years ago taking high speed data for JFR. So, I am just as biases as the "Old Guys" in fact I am and old guy myself that grew up designing data and EFI systems for the last 34 years.

    So, do we open up the field to new technologies and EFI in manor to try and improve the class or keep it the same as always. My bet is they won't change a damn thing and I think that is truly sad for the class that has so many possibilities.
    Best Regards,
    Blake
     
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  14. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    If the goal is 4 second TA/FC's let them run a C screw at 125% over. :)
     
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  15. Blake

    Blake Member

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    The main goal is to reduce cost to the teams so more teams can compete. 4 second runs on 92% overdrive would be a bonus just for the hype but, it would be fleeting just like when TFFC broke into the 4s in the mid 90's. Reducing the cost to compete is a bigger issue to keep TAD going.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  16. Hemi101

    Hemi101 Member

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    What is EFI?
     
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  17. Hemi101

    Hemi101 Member

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    AND TAFC and TAD running 4 second runs haha i dont care how you try and justify that its gonna be expensive...EFC or no EFC...oh sorry EFI!
     
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  18. Blake

    Blake Member

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    EFI is Electronic Fuel Injection.
     
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  19. tdracer

    tdracer New Member

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    Here is my take on the class. First i would like to say i am new to TAD having just purchased an A/Fuel car. I am stepping up from Top Dragster. Other than always just wanting to run nitro, the initial cost of an A/Fuel car over a blown setup was a big factor in my decision. Let me add, i am not out to rotate the earth and will probably have a limited schedule 3-4 regionals next year, maybe a booked in show.
    From what i can see, the biggest issue in getting new participants to the class would be cost per run. Travelling expenses are a factor, but cost per run and turn around times are my biggest concern. Crew seems to be an issue with some teams, and i am sure less work at the track would help tremendously.
    What changes would be involved for both the injected and blown cars to due less maintenance on the motors between runs?

    For a A/Fuel car it would mean softening the tuneup to where you wouldn't have to service the bottom end.

    For a blown car, it would be reducing rpm to help valvetrain/rod life.

    Would slowing the class down to 5.60's accomplish this?

    Both cars would still need to do their clutch service.

    Lower cost, quicker turn around, smaller crews...

    Just kicking some ideas out there.

    Thank you to Will for the facebook broadcast the other night. Very informative. Also thanks for this great website with a lot of knowledge and information available!

    Safe racing!

    Brian Peeters
    Windsor, On.
     
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  20. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    Top Alcohol is and always should be a driver's class. Yeah, money helps buy you experience, but doesn't buy championships. I think the massive misconception about teams with money vs. teams on tight budgets are that money buys better stuff and more of it. Better stuff helps, but it doesn't help you know how to use it. Money buys LAPS. It takes laps to learn what your stuff wants and how to drive. If you're a green driver, technology may help take you out of the equation for the tuner... But what happened to working your ass off to get better at something?

    As for cost of parts... At Chicago, I saw Joey doing normal service all weekend, and saw Meyer change motors twice in 2 laps. Either combination can be REALLY expensive on any given lap. Today's valvetrains are a stable as ever for Hemi's, I don't think the RPM issue is what it was when A/Fuel started taking over.

    As for cost of crew... If you can't find 4-5 dependable buddies to come to a race and learn with you for the cost of a ticket, food and beer, maybe you need to look at how you're living your life. lol

    This sport isn't for the faint of heart. There is a lot of pain and learning even on your way to just divisional/regional success. People want instant success these days. Same reason so few people play musical instruments, you can't be good at it overnight. This is why the old hats have such a problem with today's technology. God forbid you leave a driver's class a driver's class and make someone get good at driving. Why do you think Pro Mod is so popular these days? lol
     
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