heat treating moly frame

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by nmro2114, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. Comax Racing

    Comax Racing Member

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    Heat treating

    I am very interested in trying the ER80-D2 rod, I just hope I can get it at my welding supply store.

    I have a question for Bob, using the ER80-D2 rod, are there any procedural differences than with the ER70S2 rod that you are aware of?

    I've been using the ER70S2 for 20yrs and was of the opinion that it was the rod to use and that fact was chipped in stone.

    Thanks for the info
    Corey
     
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    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  2. Bottlefed

    Bottlefed New to Blowers

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    I think it would be important to add that when using the ER 80D-2 to weld normalized 4130 Chrome Moly one should preheat the weld area to 150°f prior to welding.

    I have a problem with my eyes and no longer weld but when I used to weld frames (bicycle motorcycle) back about 25 years ago I would always preheat the tubing to 150 degrees and also kept a pail of (clean) sand preheated to 180° after welding I would cover the weld with the hot sand to facilitate the slow cooling of the joint. I don't know if this kind of treatment is still in favor but this is how I did it back in the day.

    As for the frames that broke a few years back, I think most of them involved the use of heat treated 4130 tubing, instead of normalized, while heat treated tubing is the only steel you would ever want to use in certain applications (road bike frame) because of its high energy return on flexion it also has a nasty habit of cracking when fatigued or deformed. And is almost impossible to weld in the field without imparting brittle martensitic areas. For these reasons I would never want to have the portions of a car frame that surround the driver either made of heat treated 4130 or would I want to heat treat a welded frame to the point where its at or above 140,000 psi, due to the inablility to weld the car without the chance of causing embrittlement.
     
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  3. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    Corey; you are somewhat correct. Since the 60's through the early 80's, everybody used Oxweld #65 made by Union Carbide to the closest spec ER70-S2, except thiers was triple deoxidized. When USA workers demanded higher wages, wire companies from around the world jumped in with the bottom of the barrell wire that barely made the spec which actually stated "single" deoxified. Many "49 Nash's came back in the form of wire! I tried anything I could to get back to a clean weld. Esab bought the rights to Oxweld names, but after finally finding some, I wasn't satisfied. I didn't want to spend my life trying to find something I didn't understand, and for damned sure was'nt going to believe the rubbish on "the internet, where everything is true", including a famous mfg of machines website that actually lists SS as a compatable rod for 4130 (Miller has it right).
    I relied on the expertise of one Chuck Beal, who most do not know is a "Nuclear Weld Quality Engineer" for General Atomic Corp. He gave me a list of compatible wire chemical analysis and I went from there. Many brands are virtualy the same thing, but price varied by several $ a pound.
    The 80-D2 has a little more silicone, so you may see what appears to be "hair" on the surface of the weld, but that's the only difference.
    Remember, this IS the internet, so try it and judge for yourself.
     
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  4. WANNABE

    WANNABE New Member

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    And yes, the 80 is very avaialbe at all of my local welding shops. It should be pretty easy for you to find. It does take a little playing to get it working as well as the good ole 70, that I stocked up on 10 years ago, but I am almost fully out of. Also, a quick look into the new SFI deals will show that the 80 is pretty much the standard anymore.
     
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  5. Comax Racing

    Comax Racing Member

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    heat treating

    I'll go to my welding supply Monday and I will let you know. I used to work for General Electric welding turbine parts but I had never heard of this rod. But that was 10Yrs ago since I talked to those boys. I was a contractor for them so maybe they never gave me the complete training.

    Thanks
    Corey
     
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  6. G. Anderson

    G. Anderson Member

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    Bob Meyer,
    Thanks for the info on the ER80-D2

    I knew that there was a better rod for 4130 but I couldn't remember. (Sr Moment:p).

    Gary Anderson
     
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  7. rattler

    rattler AA/Fuel Altered

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    Great information Bob, Years ago we used # CMS 32. What is your opionion on that rod?
    Ricky
     
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  8. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    Ricky; that rings a bell, but I think that was the era of the easy to come by Oxweld #65, so I didn't experiment much, and didn't need to.

    Gary; I even remember where Rosemount is ! I escaped MN. 39 yrs ago this coming April. Here's some trivia for you, Don Ness was a stick welder when I met him, I put the first Tig torch in his hand...:)
     
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  9. G. Anderson

    G. Anderson Member

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    Bob, I used to live in Escondido, Ca. Used to race with the Meziere family,
    They were/are buds with Chuck Beal, he had at that time a very good looking Alky Funny.
    Ness started out in the back of MAS Racing on Hennepin Ave. MPLS.
    making traction bars.
    Ness folded up Racecraft, I guess a few employees took it over..not sure.
    I understand Ness might work in the Tech part of the ADRL...

    That was a long time a go in a Galaxie far far away.............

    I like your informative posts, I am always trying to find/steal good ideas to improve my welding. Somebodies (my sons for one) life usually depends on it.

    Gary
     
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    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
  10. AFC357

    AFC357 New Member

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    I'm with Bob on this one, switched to the 80 series filler 5 years ago, the ONLY way to go in my experience;)
     
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  11. Kramer Metal Fab Inc.

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    Welding filler Rod

    Bob,

    Are you saying that we are unable to buy ER70s-2 that is good from anyone? Any Brand? My understanding from my research is that 70 is more elastic than 80. Less prone to stress cracking but 80 has more tensile strength than 70.
    Please advise. Thanks,
    Rusty
     
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  12. AFC357

    AFC357 New Member

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    That was my same initial thoughts, the higher Tensile Strength of the 80 would be more crack prone, but have had ZERO issues.
     
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  13. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    Rusty; I don't think BRAND means much anymore to a supplier who is just a "reboxer", it's wherever they can get wire from to stuff their boxes.
    I asked my welding store guy if I could go in the back to look at inventory. One pile of 70-S2 were all in the same brand boxes, but had small stickers stating MADE IN *****, 1st one said Korea, more said China, another said Switzerland, my eyes fell on my watch, and I thought "they make good watches" so I took a few sticks to the shop before I bought the whole box (as I had already returned 3 boxes). I didn't go back for it.
    I am currently happy with both 70S-2 and 80-D2 from WA Alloy Co. that has both east and west branches. Unfortunately, even though I thought it was the law, the boxes have no country of mfg.
    As far as the increased tensile, I believe that is where the "heat draw" consideration comes into play. Hell, I even weld "big" with 1/16" rod according to some people. I only use it on 5/8" and smaller.
     
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  14. Kramer Metal Fab Inc.

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    Bob,

    Thank you for your information.
    Rusty
     
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  15. hotrod 316

    hotrod 316 New Member

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    bob,
    I'm not a 5 year welder or a welder at all, my questions is if you preclean your tubing 1-2'' weld it -- preclean your tubing 1/2'' weld it, doesn't the heat draw ring move out further on the preclean tubing that was clean 1-2''
    thanks steve m
    ps hope this makes sense
     
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  16. M Tigges

    M Tigges TAFC

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    The 80-D2 has a little more silicone, so you may see what appears to be "hair" on the surface of the weld, but that's the only difference.(Bob Meyer)

    I have been using the 80-d2 and was worried that was voltage worm tracking like i see in the heavy welding we do when your voltage is to high.

    Thanks for clearing that up Bob.

    Mark
     
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  17. AFC357

    AFC357 New Member

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    Hey Mark, we have reduced those nasty "worms" w/ESAB wire in the Heavy Fab shop;)
     
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  18. Kurt - Prostart Race Cars

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    Just remember the most important part is still the welder, and I don't mean the machine!
    I have seen some serious damage to material by improper welding, no matter what filler rod was used. Remember that you are also creating your own "MIX" of filler and base material as you weld.
    Any of us who took the "old" SFI aircraft welding test probably still have the cut in half piece in their tool box, after all you used to have to be SFI certified to be a chassis builder.
     
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