Dropping Valves

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by ProMod83, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. ProMod83

    ProMod83 Member

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    Hey guys wondering if anyone has any insight on what may be happening with my junk. I have a 600 BBC TT on alky. I ran the motor on the dyno tune looked nice made about 6 pulls. We went to fire it to make a 7th pull and heard some noise so we shut it down and pulled the vavle covers. We found that the motor dropped #2 and #3 intake valves. Upon closer inspection we noticed that the keepers are pulling through the retianers. We had almost ever cylinder except maybe an intake or and exhaust on 1 or 2 cylinders that hadn't pulled the keep way down in the retainer. We run manley ti retainers and the retianer expanded letting the keepers and valve fall through thus dropping the intakes i above mentioned. We have run this motor last season maybe 2 dozen times between dyno and runs and maybe a dozen or so this season. I am wondering if we have to much spring pressure or if these retainers are just junk.

    I have a problem replacing all this and then maybe having the same problem, like why did this is this happening. Any info would be appreciated.

    Thanks & Happy Easter,
    Billy
     
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  2. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I always use BAE Ti retainers and keepers. I don't know who makes them for BAE. I have heard that it is Trick Titanium. They never seem to fail. I still check them on a routine basis. Also double check that you are using the correct keepers for the groove shape in the top of the valve and that the keeper is the correct degree angle for the retainer.

    If you drop an intake valve in the run then the supercharger may get airborne.
     
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  3. wildride boy

    wildride boy Top Sportsman Racer

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    I heard , long time ago , that the only supplier of the titanium is the us government (army).
    The secret receipe of this product is the propriety US army .
    Is it true or simply an urban legend ?
     
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  4. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Urban legend. Most Ti comes from Russia. We do get some from Canada and some from Georgia. There are other places but they are just small amounts.
     
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  5. DQUES

    DQUES Member

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    Give Ken Jusczcyk a call , he knows a lot about retainer pull through . He is a sales rep for Pac springs and they do extensive research and testing on this subject . His # is 216-390-4561 .
     
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  6. Bottlefed

    Bottlefed New to Blowers

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    One other thing that has not been mentioned is to check for adequate clearence between coils on the springs.

    Richard Gavle
     
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  7. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Good point Richard. If the springs are going into coil bind it can pop the keepers in the retainer and cause the retainer to break.
     
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  8. Bottlefed

    Bottlefed New to Blowers

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    Thanks Mike,

    Its good to see you on the boards frequently again, your posts are always on target.

    R/G
     
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  9. craig moss

    craig moss Member

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    valves

    How much boost?? I just found out I had stretched valves due to lack of seat psi under 38 psi they were bouncing.Thank god we found it before the big drop had 2 valves stretched .040 :eek:
     
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  10. ProMod83

    ProMod83 Member

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    Hey guys thanks for all the replys already. We have not run the engine over say 32psi yet. We bought the heads fully assembled from Sonnys so to be honest I never looked closely to check for coil bind. I also never checked that the keepers and retainer were a match.

    I have it all apart now and have to weld these heads up get a 2 new seats put in and order some valves. I was told the valves springs and retainers are Manley.

    I did at one point check seat pressure and to the best of my memory we had around 350 or so psi on the seat.

    I am posting this for the team in which I work on is having these issues. We (team all appreciate the replies and pms we have recieved, offering up info) We want to get back out there asap.

    Thanks Again!
    Billy
     
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  11. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    Myth : it and a lot of other special alloys and a huge percentage of the US valve steel use to be made right here in Syracuse at Crucible steel ;)
     
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  12. ProMod83

    ProMod83 Member

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    We just had the same issue all over again. This time we can see that the vavle is con cave where it contacts the seat as if the vavles are floating and allowing creating so much vibration it is driving the keeps trough the retianers.
     
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  13. ITS IN MY BLOOD

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    tool lipping,..2 lipping,..,.to lup ping,..tuliping,..tullipping,..(spelling) ????

    cause from too weak of a valve spring, and its beatting itself till the keepers shear, or breaks the head off the valve.





    .
     
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  14. ProMod83

    ProMod83 Member

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    yeah its not shearing the keeper a few ripped the vavle head from the stem but most just pulled the keepers right through the retainer.
     
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  15. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    parts

    If you're only running 350 lbs of seat pressure, that may be your problem. You also might be running into coil bind.

    400 lbs should be a bare minimum for just about any blown/boost application. 425-450 is better. It is very hard for the intake valve spring because it is closing against boost. It also has pressure against the backside of the valve when closed, effectively lowering your actual seat pressure. I don't know the formula, but if you figured it up, with 350 lbs at the seat, your effective seat pressure with boost is probably 250 or less.

    If it is tuliping the valve, you may want to double check and make sure you have the right valve for the application. I've seen valves that weren't beefy enough tulip.

    We are talking about Ti valves, right?

    Most of the big CID stuff isn't really designed to work in boost applications.

    Hope that helps.

    If you want to talk to some experts, here are the numbers to some of the smartest people in the biz:

    Noel Manton Manton Engineering: 951-415-7348
    Ken Jusczcyk PAC Springs 216-390-4561
     
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  16. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    When you are saying 400 lbs plus of spring pressures then I don't think you are talking about BBC or Ford BB motors. You may require that on a Chrysler hemi because of the valve geometry but not on all motors.
     
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  17. Bottlefed

    Bottlefed New to Blowers

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    Promod83,

    Here are some numbers to consisder, if you are running the 2.550 intake the area of the intake vavle head is 8.0011 inchs the stem to head portion of the vavle is roughly .4" so the area of that is 1.256" so if you subtract the 1.256 from the 8.0011 you get a vavle area of 6.745 sq inch's that will be seeing roughly the manifold boost ( I suspect that the actual pressure is greater since you are trying to close the vavle against a coluum of air and fuel traveling at hundreds of MPH but my math is way to weak to calculate for this anyway ;) )

    So if you had 38 lbs of boost then you would have 38 times 6.745 or 256.31 extra pounds of pressure trying to hold the intake open, thats on top of any other inertia loads due to the wieght of the vavle, retainer, spring, rockers, pushrods, lifters, etc.

    I would recommend you talk to Noel Manton for his recomendations on vavle gear or Bennet Racing 800-240-7223 if you would be more comfortable with someone with turbo specific experience, ps they selected the components for my nitrous motor and it made over 300 passes before dying so they are no dummies in any arena but turbos are their bread and butter.

    Richard Gavle
     
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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  18. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    valve

    Not to come off as a smart ass reply, but how does the valve know what engine it's in? I wouldn't think it's going to have much smaller than a 2.400 intake valve? Even with a smaller valve, sure you reduce weight and you reduce surface area, but more pressure is going to control the valve better in a boost situation almost every time. 425-450 lbs should be well within the operating range of any rocker gear. I can almost guarantee you'll pick up more hp controlling the valve better than what marginal losses you'll run into with increased spring pressure.

    Pressure is just one theory. Sounds like the springs could be too close to bind as well, which will cause all kinds of problems. Too close to bind and not enough pressure could be at play here. In my opinion, if spring pressure isn't the problem, it could be a problem for sure.

    You mentioned the heads were assembled, did you disassemble them and check pressure on a bench unit like a rimac? Sometimes on the head testers can be off +/- 100 lbs.

    Just do your homework and see what's different with your combination than other turbo cars.
     
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  19. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I believe it has to do with valve train geometry. There is no way we run 400+ lbs of spring pressure on a BBF and I have never heard of it being required on a BBC. Some guys may do it because it is done on the Chrysler hemi so they think it needs to be done on theirs. It probably doesn't hurt to do it but not required. Also I don't think Billy (Promod83) is going over 10,000 rpm probably not even 9000 rpm if that. Since the heads were set up by Sonny's I would assume that they know what they are doing with spring pressures.
     
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  20. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    geometry

    Maybe its because I'm not an engineer, but I don't know how geometry is going to make the valve close better against boost? Most of the work is changing direction, then closing the valve against the pressure in the runner and moving the weight of the valvetrain. Sure a rigid, properly aligned valve train should be somewhat easier to close, but I can't see it being a major factor on a boost motor.

    Again, it's my belief on a boosted motor you'll gain more HP by controlling the valvetrain than residual losses due to spring pressure. I think geometry helps more in controlling the valvetrain, and making your valvetrain do what your cam is trying to tell it to do more accurately. You still have to close that valve effectively and control it.

    Higher seat pressures and springs with high open pressures like Ti Springs, the PAC 1320 dual, the new Manley duals, etc., are relatively new in the grand scheme of things. I've ran into a number of guys in Europe with hemi's that still run spring pressures in the 300's on a Top Alcohol car.

    I may have just shown my ignorance in valvetrain...like I said, I'm no engineer, just a practical application specialist...:D

    OH, and Mike 8973's suck :eek::D
     
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