Blown or A-Fuel?

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Cdn526, Dec 12, 2009.

Page 1 of 2
  1. Cdn526

    Cdn526 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    5
    The big question...
    I plan on running TAD in 2011, spending 2010 learning this next step. I've been running TD Div 5 the last 3 yrs, using an older ex-TAD car w/ a Brad / Kobelco set-up, ran low 6's, so I know the motors pretty good (and what direction rods shouldn't take...).
    I crewed for Bateman/Friesen Motorsport a few times this past year, servicing the motor w/ Todd Murray, and have gotten to know a few things about the screw blower potential.
    That, along with chatting w/ Richard Putz's, Shawn Cowie's, and Ed Schmekle's outfits about their choice (and seeing the success they achieve), makes for an argument to blown.
    On the flip side, watching what Conway, Randy Meyer, and many others have done w/ A-fuel (including the 5.15 blast that the TigerFlow rail did in Vegas) leaves me to think that A-Fuel may be a better bet.
    I will be helping local A-Fueler Doug Doucette in this upcoming season to learn more on the A-Fuel side of the fence.
    Yes, the blown cars run a lot higher rpm & have tranny to deal with, but the A-Fuel seem to be a lot more 'finnicky', especially w/ weather & altitude, yet are somewhat easier on the drivetrain.
    What I do like about the A-Fuel is the challenge that's presented, not to say there isn't a challenge w/ the blown units...every race is a challenge in itself.
    But to master the art of injected nitro would seem to be more rewarding.
    And talking to the some present racers, blown guys would never go A-Fuel, and the A-Fuelers, for the most part, would never consider blown as an option.
    Although I did buy an A-Fuel car this fall from B Badgett out of St. Louis, an ex-Henkleman ride, it needs quite a bit of work, and I could choose either fuel.

    I'd like to ask from the many of you respected racers that run either, why did you choose what you did?
    I'm not looking for secret formulas here, just some additional input / justification in deciding what to fill the tank with.

    PM me if ya like.

    Thank you in advance.

    Clif Bakx
    WildCowRacing
    cbakx@tristardairy.com
     
    #1
    Cdn526, Dec 12, 2009
  2. dave hirata

    dave hirata Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    check your e mail. thanks
     
    #2
    dave hirata, Dec 12, 2009
  3. tad2155

    tad2155 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2003
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    1
    tad

    a fuel:D
    have ran both a -fuel cheaper
     
    #3
    tad2155, Dec 14, 2009
  4. pennance

    pennance Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    a 10,000 RPM motor or a 5,000 RPM motor?....U do the math!
     
    #4
    pennance, Dec 14, 2009
  5. Cdn526

    Cdn526 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    5
    fuel

    Thanks for the tips...do others agree that A-fuel is cheaper, in the long run?
     
    #5
    Cdn526, Dec 14, 2009
  6. Nathan Sitko - 625 TAD/TAFC

    Nathan Sitko - 625 TAD/TAFC TAD / TAFC

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    725
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'll be the first to admit I know very little about the a/fuel deal, we have not run one ourselves.

    That being said, I'm curious to know how much (roughly) you would save running one versus a blown car? With the volume of fuel run through those motors, I would think a big chunk of your savings in parts would be eaten up by $1000 + USD per drum of nitro?
     
    #6
    Nathan Sitko - 625 TAD/TAFC, Dec 14, 2009
  7. Izzy

    Izzy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would only listen to those who have run both. Everyone has an opinion. My costs are approximately half what it was with the blown car. Ask Reichert, Sheilds, Conway etc. they have ran both combos. I don't know many Afuel cars that have switched to blown but there sure seems to be a lot of blown cars switching to Afuel.
     
    #7
    Izzy, Dec 14, 2009
  8. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    0
    My opinion isn't worth much these days, but I would say AFD is the way to go under the current rules. Only problem with an AFD, you're limited to where it will run well.
     
    #8
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
    Pat McGill, Dec 14, 2009
  9. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    costs

    The only thing I can tell you is make the decision off which class will give you the most satisfaction. If you enjoy the revs of a blower motor, go blown. If a nitro car is what you want, go A/Fuel.

    The class is at a performance plateau where it will regularly get hit with rules changes to keep it basically where it's at. I've heard 92% is coming to the A/Fuelers, and I've heard they are going to leave it alone and see what 50 degree fuel does. Bottom line is if they start ripping off teens again at 280+, you can safely assume at some point, there will be a nitro reduction. Along those same lines, if blown cars ever make enough advances to find the teens with consistency, you'll see changes there. History has shown over the last 10 years, the A/Fuel cars have had to shoulder the burden of rule changes.

    In a perfect world, rule changes would be made according to what was needed to make the class equal. I think a lot of us would like to see them speed the blown cars up and leave the A/Fuel cars alone. But we're not in a perfect world, and NHRA doesn't want the class any faster, so what happens is the A/Fuelers keep getting hit with rules to slow them down. So, keep that in mind when making the decision.

    Now, here comes the cost debate. The cost of running a Top Alcohol car is much more closely correlated to how good of a tuneup you have rather than the type of car you have. Case in point, if a certain racer was blowing a lot of parts up with a blown car, then buys an A/Fuel car with a tuneup that didn't blow parts up, well, it's safe to assume the A/Fuel car is cheaper. There are blown cars out there that go fast and don't constantly blow parts up.

    Sure the A/Fueler has some lower cost areas. Rods, pistons, valve springs, no blower belts, etc. What about the cost of nitro? You have twice the spark plugs at $6 a pop. Twice the wires and ignition costs. Damn near twice the clutch costs because you have one more disc and floater every run and it's harder on the clutch than a blown car. A/Fuelers are much more prone to chunk tires which runs the tire bill up by the end of the year. A/Fuelers are more prone to push the head gaskets or burn chambers/valves. Shipping heads back and forth and repair work adds up in a hurry.

    Given your blown experience with a top dragster, you could probably buy a baseline from someone and do pretty respectable with a blown car. Not saying you won't be the next Reichert or Conway on the tuneup, but most need a lot of help getting to the dance with the A/Fuel combo. That must be considered in any comparison.

    These are all perfect world comparisons, and we don't race in a perfect world. There are so many other factors that come into play, it's nearly impossible to objectively compare the two.

    Even if you could, operational costs are only part of the budget. Personel and travel expenses are another huge chunk of the cost of running one of these. I have yet to see the A/Fuel or Blown lane at the Flying J Truck Stop for fuel.

    Regardless of the combination, a lot of how much you are going to spend depends on who you hire to tune your car and how hard you want to push it. If you're happy showing up and qualifying, there are tuneups for both combos that will do that and be considerably cheaper than telling your tuner you want to push it hard enough to be at the top.

    At the end of the day, pick the combo that you're going to enjoy the most, don't get into it thinking you're going to have the Geico money staring you down if you buy one or the other:D
     
    #9
    Will Hanna, Dec 14, 2009
  10. backmotor

    backmotor Owner/Crewchief/Test Pilot

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    1
    Great post Will, very well written :D
     
    #10
    backmotor, Dec 14, 2009
  11. Cdn526

    Cdn526 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    5
    fuel

    Yes Wil, thanks for the write-up.
    I'm not choosing A or B directly on costs, cause as you say, one can easily blow them both up.
    But point taken that running 4000rpm less should have an advantage on carnage, as mentioned earlier, which may be easier on the pocket book, but also downtime, spare stocks, shipping, my wifes patience level, etc.
    Thank you all for the replies so far!!
    Clif
     
    #11
    Cdn526, Dec 14, 2009
  12. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    rpm

    Clif -

    Like I was saying, there are fuel, clutch, ignition and tire costs that offset much of the rpm costs. Any savings that may be left over usually gets eaten up by increased tuner costs.
     
    #12
    Will Hanna, Dec 15, 2009
  13. alt 6153

    alt 6153 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    1
    home track advantage

    One thing to think about is your home track. You said you raced div 5. Is Denver your home track?:confused: Your not going to impress anyone on Nitro in Denver. The blown cars have a hard time there, but a Nitro car is just filler. Just a thought.
     
    #13
    alt 6153, Dec 15, 2009
  14. Izzy

    Izzy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Playing devil's advocate Will, (things are really slow at work) I agree that spark plugs & fuel are definitely more.
    The extra ignition parts are offset by the supercharger cost.
    An Afuel clutch is more but you don't need a transmission.
    As far as clutch discs go, a lot of Afuel guys get used clutch discs for "free" from the top fuel guys (Reichert included).
    You can get 50-75 runs out of a set of rods compared to 12 (if you don't hit the limiter).
    Steel valve springs versus titanium (steel springs last years not 12-14 passes)
    You don't need a new blower belt every 6-10 runs
    The cost of a good tuner is relative. If you want to run a fast blown car I'm sure Grimes isn't cheap either lol.
    With that being said, I loved the challenge of driving my blown car. It was one of the most satisfying things I've done in racing. But the Afuel car is easily "half" the cost of running my blown car & has the potential to run extremely fast (i.e. Vegas National '08)
     
    #14
    Izzy, Dec 15, 2009
  15. Cdn526

    Cdn526 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    5
    home track

    alt6153...home track...
    Hell, where I live, my home track is hardly of testing calibre...Gimli, Manitoba.
    My closest track is Brainerd, and although I've run Denver a few times (and pulled a Wally out of the place), A/F there is no option...
    Other than Brainerd, it's Topeka,Jolliet, Cordova (?), Indy, Madison, Great Bend, Dallas, Vegas (long 30 hr drive...maybe the Freakin Rican can sponsor the diesel...)
    Clif
     
    #15
    Cdn526, Dec 15, 2009
  16. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stay away from Vegas, AFDs won't run well there under the current rules.
     
    #16
    Pat McGill, Dec 16, 2009
  17. Izzy

    Izzy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very nice Pat. If you want to call me out go for it. Monroe sure made the rest of us look bad. If you want my phone number or address so you can call me up I'd be more than happy to give it to you. I'll be the first to admit I over reacted after a bad weekend of racing. I know you don't race so you don't know how it feels be humbled at the track. But you don't have to hide behind the little snide comments. Come right out & say what you think.
    I'm trying to help someone make an educated decision not start a pissing match. If he or anyone else wants to buy a blown car let them. They should just know all of the facts first. I have nothing to lose or gain. I can tell you that there isn't an Afuel car out there that would ever consider switching back to a blown car.
    Happy Holidays
     
    #17
    Izzy, Dec 16, 2009
  18. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great job by those guys! 5.20, followed up by a 5.15 - that was stout. Also, the top four qualifiers were AFDs.


    Sorry, I didn't realize you admitted to overreacting. I apologize.


    Great point! If it is, indeed, true, what does that tell us? (A) AFD is easier, (B) AFD is cheaper, (C) AFD has a performance advantage, (D) Other?


    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
     
    #18
    Pat McGill, Dec 16, 2009
  19. Cdn526

    Cdn526 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    5
    fuel

    Gentlemen, please...I hope that mis-understanding is sorted out; I'm only looking for a little experienced advice here (which I have received a lot of), I don't want anyone to get upset.
    I love the sport because of the people involved, ones I've met, ones I've watched; it's a special group that I'm proud to be a part of.
    Clif
     
    #19
    Cdn526, Dec 16, 2009
  20. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    0
    Despite the Blown cars that won races this year there is still a Big performance gap, look at the Top times of the year in both catagories. That being said...the racers who prefer to run a Blown car can always switch to FC or Pro mod. The FC class should thank the A-Fueler's for Jay Payne, Sean O'Bannon, Jeff Wilson, Don Hudson, Lee Calloway, and a few others who opted to switch to another Blown catagory rather than switch to A-Fuel! True Parity will always be Impossible in the same class, unless they split them up.
     
    #20
    Darren Smith, Dec 16, 2009
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page





XenPorta 2 PRO © Jason Axelrod from 8WAYRUN.COM