Attn every tad/tafc racer!

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    get out of the tunnel!

    Trevor,

    Your post couldn't be further from the truth.

    Any significant overdrive change will come at a HUGE cost. It's not just buying a blower pulley. First thing, is you throw out several years of documented data. No more being able to just dial up a jet and a tuneup for certain conditions. That has a huge hidden cost in itself blowing up and losing runs trying to figure this new tuneup out. Then there's getting the fuel system redone with probably another smaller pump. All of your trans ratios are obsolete. With a new engine and ratios, so is the clutch setup.

    It's already bad enough at 92 od that you really have to be able to go a minimum of 10,200-10,300 to be competitive, any lower you'll see teams going 11,000. Eventually every "Big" 4.150 stroke tall deck motor out there will be obsolete because it will take a 466 or smaller just to get the stroke small enough to handle those rpm's. Guess what, rev limiters aren't the answer either.

    If you think the roots racing world is so much cheaper, look at the legal Pro Mods. Better have $15k ready for the trick of the week blower, and have some cash ready when your XYZ double throwdown roots get's trumped by ABC's triple throwdown model for $17.5 k. Oh and btw, that's just the blower. To get access to these triple throwdowns, you have to be on this guy's 'program' spending mega bucks with him already. If not, you get the leftovers and the A-list guys get the 'good ones'.

    This is an old argument because if you were around the class in 01 or 02 when they implemented the 92 od rule, you saw it first hand. AND they thought this would make the roots cars competitive. It didn't save anyone any money and the roots cars got back into IHRA real quick.

    NHRA shouldn't have to make rules to accomodate racers who made a choice to race another series/rules, either. It sucked for those guys to get the shaft like they did, but a blind man could have seen the train coming, too.

    This will cost more money, kill car counts and NHRA will never, ever give us a pay raise. I just pulled an old newspaper article from 1983 where Jay Meyer won the Denver race and won $5000, just the same as you can win today in 2009, except that ..$5000 will buy a hell of a lot less.

    Hate to come down on your idea Trevor, nothing personal, but it's a BAD idea, and just an example of why we need to come together as a collective to try to prevent BAD ideas from getting handed down to us.
     
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  2. clint thompson

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    leave it alone

    I like 1000 foot racing for fuel cars. The show is still good, the speeds are down and they have a longer distance to stop. They should just call it, commit to the 1000' deal and leave it alone.

    Quite a shit storm you've got stirred up Will, I understand your concern and you may have a very valid point. I have not seen your ideas of what to do though. It seems any changes to the rules are going to be expensive for all of us. What is your idea?
     
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  3. Soldierboy0098

    Soldierboy0098 Active Member

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    Will

    Hi Will, As for coming down on my idea No worries, this part of the site was made for discussions and comparisons right? The best part of this site is you can here both sides and I always enjoy learning so I'm glad you brought this up. Any change on anyone's part usually sucks for one reason or another. Most people dislike change period because it brings them out of a comfort zone.

    I do understand the loss of usable data is very bad, I forgot to list that.
    And I completely forgot that you have the trans setup for that o.d. even though I just got a screw blown ratio and had to switch back for the roots. Though I do think if you got the o.d. ratio correct to make a side by side so to speak w/ a roots car then gear ratio would be taken out of the picture as the car would run similar e.t's regardless, not to say you may not be able to change gear ratios w/ less overdrive and run better but if a side by side was done using the current Screw gear ratios then they would not have to change them if that makes sense. I'm having a difficult time putting this into words.

    I'm not out to screw the screw guys...no pun intended as I would like to go to one myself and planned on it originally as you know. There must be some way to meet that goal and even things up in the process without making mass changes, Would a simple limit of rear gear ratio from the common 4.29 to a 4.10 help? Or possibly the addition of some weight? The engine could stay the same that way and tuning wouldn't change a lot just some timer adjustments maybe. I am not greatly experienced at this so I'm just throwing out ideas and I look forward to hearing anyone's ideas.

    I never said roots racing is cheaper, it's only cheaper if you already have the setup and can't sell it for anything. Darren's new M5 is a prime example of not cheaper it actually costs more than a screw approx. $12,500 vs. $10,000 roughly. I know what your saying but that wasn't what I meant. Ask Tim Stephens about how he went from a Kobelco K-11 to a M-5 to a PSI roots, to a PSI screw in about a month. What he spent vs. what he go out of selling stuff was enough to make him go batty and run Nostalgia top fuel...lol

    I understand that NHRA should not have to make changes because IHRA screwed us over and I agree. I was thinking that it may improve the sport some if done right though. That if this happens, if it doesn't I will still try to get a screw. Believe me I love the idea of going faster...And even with all of the Iraqi sand in my eyes I did see it coming it was just too late, the money was already spent.

    The pay raise was more wish full thinking but a guy can dream can't he...and $5,000 does buy a lot less...Indeed inflation sucks.

    We do need to band together, just about anyone on here has more tuning experience in the real world then me so please share the thoughts. Some smart guy on here has the answer. Were racers damn it, we can do anything or screw anything up if we put are minds to it.

    If I am wrong and this is an horrible idea I'm glad you pointed it out, I'm just trying to think of a way to make the best out of it. If I'm right though Will you owe me a beer sometime...lol

    Best wishes to all and I look forward to seeing you all at the track very soon.
    Trevor Sherwood
    NHRA TAFC
     
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  4. Russ Parker

    Russ Parker Member

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    I love alcohol funny car and dragster. I love the people and the competition. Real racers, families and friends - not the 3 ring circus that fuel racing has become.

    I love the action on the track. Having said that, I must be honest about these classes and their level of importance to the NHRA. If it was that great, why don't the stands remain full at national events? I've heard various reasons given, but the bottom line is they don't. Of course NHRA needs people to move back and forth for concession and souvenir purchases, and they can accomplish this without alcohol cars. The only reason I can really see why alcohol cars are included as much as they are is the Lucas family. Without their support for sportsman racing things would look more dire than they do. If I'm right then your best bet is to enter into discussion with Forrest Lucas and find out what he, as the major sponsor, wants from the alcohol classes and with that you'd have some leverage with NHRA.

    Other than that the market will self-correct. There is just too much self-interest to be able to come together for the common good. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. So just as you must live within your means you must race within your means and I know firsthand how hard that is to do.

    Personally, fishing has become more and more appealing. I don't have to have the baddest boat on the water. In fact, my 1986 18 ft. Almar can catch salmon and sturgeon just as well as any North River, Duckworth or
    Boulton.
     
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  5. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Unless you knock a screw blower way, way down on od without making changes to the roots, you're not going to make a roots competitive with a screw, and it damn sure won't be affordable for anybody.
     
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  6. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    I hope we don't have to do anything, but the responsible thing is to see what their intentions for us are, if indeed they do slow the fuel cars down.

    The point of this thread is to get people aware of the situation. If the SRAC is still functional, email or call them with your concerns. Email or call your Div. Director. We need them to address this first and foremost instead of something getting handed down to us.

    I really don't want this thread to get bogged down on what to do. I just want to get racers aware of a potential big change coming down the pike. Even if that makes some people want to sell their stuff and do something else, it's better than just sitting back and acting like nothing is going to happen.
     
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  7. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    Less is the new Flat Black.

    Ok, after looking at all the evidence presented......Russ Parker is correct.


    All but the fishing part..I just cant.

    Next problem.

    Thank you Will Hanna.
     
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  8. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    a response

    I just got off the phone with a 'senior ranking official' at NHRA. He told me the changes to the fuel cars were designed to prevent catastrophic engine explosions rather than slow the cars down. Slowing them down was not the goal, rather a byproduct. In that, they feel it necessary that both TF and FC are able to still run 300 mph on occasion, whether it's 1000' or 1320'.

    In saying that, there is no structured distance between the fuel categories and alcohol categories. The 40 mph stated in the HD buyout was due to the fact HD was buying the Pro series and they wanted some assurances the sportsman series, still owned by NHRA, would not get too close to the fuel cars.

    In that, he said they never want to see alcohol cars in the 4 second zone or over 300 mph. When the categories approach those limits, changes will be made. So, if any car were to approach 290 mph or 5.0s, they can expect changes to curb that.

    In that, he said changes will continue to be made primarily to maintain parity in the TAD class.

    Speed is primarily a concern at divisional events as well. It was stated that there are some who are in favor of slowing the TAD class to a 250 mph class, but that is not the majority opinion.

    The new rules for the fuel classes would be implemented, at earliest 2011, so no changes are imminent.

    Hey, I'm glad I was wrong, but it was very nice to get some official clarification on the standing of our categories. I'm sorry if I got some of you riled up, but I like to stay a few steps ahead of the game if possible, and want to make sure the alcohol racing community is as well.

    Thanks for the concern, and back to your regularly scheduled programming...
     
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  9. bruce mullins

    bruce mullins Top Dragster

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    why the speculation or even climb up on a soapbox Will? since the split of pro-comp way back when ,the rules have been whatever NHRA chooses. and the one constant is the fact that if you want to race, it will be by NHRA rules!!!. I think it's very nice of you to try to make a point for all the races, but it won't change anything. I said this years ago and took a ton of heat for it! Racers really tried when they formed T.A.R.A., but lets be honest, how well did that work? then some others tried to resurect it by coming on here asking for notes and minutes from any meetings, where are they now? I'm not knocking you for concerns Will, but racers have always changed their cars to comform to the rules changes and showed up at the first race or some will have to take the unfortunate route, and NHRA won't loose any sleep over it either. that's life.
     
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  10. ITS IN MY BLOOD

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    Will,...I hope you got that in writting, and Noterized too.


    :)


    .
     
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  11. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

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    NHRA -Association?

    I have a different point here-one that everybody dances around but nobody has addressed? National Hot Rod Association membership- those words imply we are in a association, that we are members. Almost like we have some input into what happens? When was the last time we got to VOTE on something? This is not an Association- I don't know what it is but somebody in Glendora makes decisions and we abide by them. That is how it is. Certainly not a democracy. So my question to Will-does it make any difference what we think? Dave Germain
     
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  12. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Russ, it doesn't matter the class, if you follow the Fuel cars you will see a Firedrill out of the stands! I've seen it over and over again in the last 3 years since NHRA moved the Alky classes after Fuel!

    Back when Alky ran before the Pro's you saw much bigger crowds, people heard something loud on the track and thus would make they're way to the stands!
     
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  13. nitrohawk

    nitrohawk New Member

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    What is really interesting about all these posts is that I have only heard a-fuel dragsters mentioned once. Seems to me they are the majority at most races. In div 4 there is not one bad. As usual the a-fuel guys will just get out the super size vasoline jar.
     
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  14. nitrofever1

    nitrofever1 Member

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    Do we just sit and wait%^%$@$@$



    I agree with Will on this one. 09 was my first year driving and being part of an a/fuel team. I have tried to get up to speed on the tad classes of the past. Now the future is unknown. I know I'm new to the class but from how the class was this year I don't want to be held back more, be forced to go slower. I can see NHRA doing that. I really hope something good comes from the IHRA! Does anyone have a link or email to send NHRA our thoughts?
    Dave Hill:confused:
     
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  15. pennance

    pennance Member

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    Whether we like the Force girls or not "and i do" they are the best thing to have here in this situation. I remember when Brandon was in Jerrys car there were some scuttles about rule changes and Kenny helped put them to a rest. I feel that JFR is not gonna let this get way outta line. They have a vested interest.
    Am i concerned....sure i am, but as we all know Collins is not the easiest person to work with. Collins was going around in Vegas asking specific questions pertaining to this. He is listening. BUT what the result is truly i believe is over ALL our heads.

    Its like the VP fuel only deal. Its total BS. Who is NHRA to tell us we have to buy Wingo nitro in a blue can. But it is what it is.
     
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