AJ 481X Not refilling the dry sump tank

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by SMOKIN JOE, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. chopperdan

    chopperdan New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I'm not mistaking, AMT Performance in St. Louis has routed one suction line from the dry sump pump into the lifter galley. It was on a customers engine and they were having the same problem with oil staying up top. Haven't heard how it worked, but it made sense. One suction line up top and two or three in the pan.
     
    #41
  2. wagspe208

    wagspe208 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think I said it was a joke. I do mean to imply it is ceretainy not perfect and needs another (3) scavenge section. The oil is trapped in the top.. DUH. This is why the extra scavenge sections. Get the oil from the top via a scavenge line.
    As a pump... it seems to pump its ass off. Maybe drag world is different, but in the over 6 seconds world a dry sump has the job of scavenging the oil and getting it back to the tank as well as providing pressure.
    I'm not bustin your balls bud, but it seems as many a guys have the same story to tell with this pump and were looking for answers.
    Continue on.
    Wags
     
    #42
  3. john348

    john348 Top Alcohol

    Joined:
    May 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,347
    Likes Received:
    2
    David Doswell with DJD Performance Products came by our pits at Indy with their new dry sump pump, very large scavange section on the pump at least a half inch longer the RCD's P&P pump with a very different rotor design and lots of screens to protect the pump, i think you will see more of it soon, it is going thru testing now!
     
    #43
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
  4. Barry Ferriolo

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2003
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    2
    anyone can run whatever they like. it doesn't matter to me. all i'm saying is that if the fast guys run fast without hurting their motors, than i want to use what they're using. if i can't get the same results running slower, then maybe it's not the pump.
     
    #44
  5. wagspe208

    wagspe208 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with som things you are saying... however bigger is not always better. Or suited for the task at hand.
    Real world example... a fuel guy built an aluminum engine for an 8.0 second alcohol guy (boat stuff). The fuel guy put the biggest, baddest, super GPM pump on it, etc. It kicked the rods every pass. Why? Well, because instead of running at fuel rpm's for 4 seconds it had to run at 8.0 rpm's for 10 or 11 seconds + 30 seconds idle at the line, etc. It pumped the pan dry.
    Just saying... if he had a smaller pump (less gpm) he would still have had some oil in the pan at 1/2 track.
    So, the guys that are having to drain the pan eveyr run have other solutions to their problem. 1) More scavenge is easiest 2) less gmp if is it not needed, etc.
    Wags
     
    #45
  6. tj1471

    tj1471 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oil return lines

    I had this same problem not returning oil untill after the run my fix was to weld in two # 12 lines into my heads one in each at the back at the lowest point just above the head stud as there is a natural sump at this point and then run the lines to each side of the oil pan by the pump, (yes a wet sump, Titan Pro Pump) but if the oil is in the pan while running it will be sucked out of the pan. If you run have a multy stage pump you could remove and block of the frount lines at the pan and pull from from the heads but i dont think it will be needed as it will be pulled into the pan from the heads by vacume and gravity. Ps this was not my idea it came from Titan and it works.
    Trevor Jones.
     
    #46
  7. Racer704

    Racer704 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Guys,first off I have never run a blower motor,I am bottle fed big inch for 20 years,but I can say that i have been there done that and have the T-Shirts to prove it with reguards to oil scvanging and return issues....Like you I did alot of the same things sending pumps back and it when you have a failure you hope you see why..this was mine ....

    It started with are 1st billet block and vacum pumps and over oiling are push rods and springs...I found that the engine builder didnt really match the head oil drain to the block and being one of the 1st billets things are not as refined as i would say they are now as the head gaskets really needed to be matched and trimmed to the block as well. Then have a large vacum pump ontop side of the motor and this just added to the problem of oil returning and so are pump sucked are tank dry in a matter of a minute warning up...then on the data I would see the pressure drop down track...

    Everything I have stated was found and repaired by myself over a season and have the brgs to prove it as I said....But if your suction line is a hard line your good if its a braided make sure you have a spiral core inside of it..if not it will also suck closed..thats why they make the spiral but no one like to use it as its a pain to do untill you learn the tricks or pay to get it done...also i took one of the 4 from the pan and added it to the liffer valley at the rear and like i said massaged all oil opening and added -8 lines at the rear of the heads then stright to the pan....if your liffter valley is sealed or has small openings and you dont have tall vents added it will take for ever and you guys run 50 to 60 weight oil...so think of adding oil from can to your engine in cold weather..slowwww....adding the returns from your heads will be the biggest help pieriod but dont over look the other areas also..just because it works on his do you know everything he is doing to make it work...? I think in the old days we called this blueprinting a engine......:);) One other thing is i filter off the pump side with a system one...

    Trust me when I say i feel your pain and in no way making light of your issues...also you guys really cant scavange properly with one line...no way and the whole idea of a dry sump is oil control and keeping it all in the tank not in the motor ..I might also add that we usally when everything is right run 8 to 9 quarts tops on a empty new engine...
     
    #47
  8. Racer704

    Racer704 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    One thing to add to the above i would assume..OH DAMN I didnt use that word did I...:D anyway you are watching your oil pressure on your data logger and if your not add it...this can aid in helping find each issues but its just a suggestion .....But as stated above by a few others and myself the biggest aid wil be adding return lines off your heads to the pan....Dont over look the copper gaskets either and silicone.....
     
    #48
  9. shawn davis

    shawn davis Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2004
    Messages:
    658
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 481x has plenty of return area in the heads, But the valley may be the restriction. My block has 7 holes, less than .500 diameter, as it came from CN. I just added some and opened the
    original ones as well.
    I am going to try to wet sump it with around 16 quarts and a P&P wet billet pump.
    Never hurt any parts or lost oil pressure, but the pan draining every lap bites.
     
    #49
  10. tj1471

    tj1471 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    481 return lines

    I agree that the 481 heads have good return oil holes that take it to the valley I oversized the holes in my cn block, it helped but untill i put the #12 return line off of the back of the heads that fix all of the problems as all the oil in the heads gets pushed to the back of the heads while on a run its not sitting over all of the return holes its being pushed to the back of the head give it a place to go straight to the oil pan. This one mod made the biggest change in oil return. Dont forget even if it gets to the valley its still pushed to the back of the valley then when the run is over it spreds out but by then its to late. If I was to do this on a new set of heads I would now use a #20 line because hear bigger is better at this point there is no pump pushing it or pulling it give it a place to go with the least resistance. This one mod will work on all drag engines. Trevor Jones.
     
    #50
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  11. Gearhead47

    Gearhead47 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boy... this thread would drive a Pro-Stocker insane. It would outright give him a heart attack. That much oil left up top and being spun aroung the crankcase is costing a lot of HP due to drag, etc. Take a look at a Pro-Stock oiling system sometime. You will see MULTIPLE scavenging stages along with multiple pull points. You will probably see drainback lines to the oil pan and/or scavenging lines hooked to the cylinder heads and valley. Even in wet sump Comp Eliminator Classes we have used external drain lines from the heads and valley to the pan and have them enter in places where they do not get sucked up into the windage. On these little normally aspirated engines it is measurable in minimizing parasitic loss. Not so say what it does to your engine if the pressurized side is for loss of oil and cavitates.

    Try some extra drainback lines and scavenge sections. I really think it will help:)
     
    #51
  12. Bennett

    Bennett New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2006
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we got bit by this! blown 540 new century big chief. Dan Olsen pan. Burnt the rod bearings and killed the pistons, lifters and rods. We run 18-19 Quarts Dry sump with 2 scavenge lines.

    Also the Oil tank is Blown up like a balloon. ? ? The computer shows oil psi all the way down. This engine only had 13 runs on it and it's hurt.

    Thanks for any input.
     
    #52
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  13. Moparious Maximus

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    1
    If the tank swelled up on you, your tank is not vented right. There should be NO pressure in the tank.
     
    #53

Share This Page