75 ft says Minnesota!

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Aug 10, 2006.

  1. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    With all due respect, I'd like to see your source on that. Something a judge would buy in court.

    The DOT laws don't say 26,000 GVWR (except if you have a race car that you race for recognition, or other hobbies that require rigs this large or larger that are done for no compensation).

    Your comments have been conventional thinking over the years. If you get in that argument with a knowledgable LEO you'll lose, although admittedly many LEO's don't know commercial trucking laws that well. That's why you can't walk up to a LEO in a rest area and ask him your commercial vs motorhome questions figuring you'll get the right answer, even if it's the answer you wanted. You need to speak to a LEO in the commercial enforcement divisions that know DOT laws and regs. Saying officer so-and-so said I was OK as a non commercial while your on the shoulder of your favorite Interstate won't hold a whole lot of water, because the LEO busting you will figure you are either lying or you spoke to a rookie who didn't know better.

    There are hundreds of toters (Top Kick, Kodiac, Freightliner, Mac, etc) that are registered as motorhomes. Call any of the toter manufacturers/distributors and they will have many customer horror stories to tell regarding commercial enforcement. They are concerned that the wave of enforcement amongst all the states is going to ultimately effect their business. I asked one of the major dealers I spoke to why the manufacturers and dealers don't get together to make changes is the laws? Why should the recreational racer who puts 15,000 miles a year on his rig have to go through all the paperwork including commercial registration, log books, permits, commercial insurance and other BS the same as the trucker on the road for a living every day driving 15,000 miles a month? To me it doesn't make sense.

    Although California is typically the revenue leader when it comes to ruining your day while minding your own business on the road, I mentioned other states in an earlier post that are as tough or tougher on you and your rig. And the list is growing. You can take your chances, and depending on where you live and race you may have a trouble free racing career. Just be aware that the possibility for problems exists. Fly at night, is what a lot of people do, to stay under the radar.

    When we had our first toter (1998 FL70/NRC) towing a 46' T&E race car trailer with no lettering we were stopped. The very first thing the LEO said was "I bet we're going to have a conversation about this being a motorhome." He was disappointed when we handed him a CDL, DOT, apportioned registration, IFTA and log book.

    If you are good at making your case you can get almost any DMV to register your toter as a motorhome. And you can tell the LEO you are on your way to Yosemite after getting chased down for running the scales. But it isn't going to matter, because his actions speak louder than the words of misinformation people have filled their minds with, because we tend to only hear what we want to. Since he knew to chase you down, I'm sure he's heard your song and dance before.

    Good advice to people posting "opinions" is to make sure you have a viable source to back up your claims. There are a lot of people who sit at the computer reading this stuff that are lurking, looking for answers and are plenty nervous. The best way to do it is to post a link from a reputable web site like the USDOT or the DOT in your state if they have something specific to say that will help all of us. Just like the link I posted about the CA DOT Motorsports Exemption regarding overall lengths and KPRA (king pin to rear axle) measurements. This change in law was brought about by the NASCAR Racers working with friends in high places in California because the CHP used to sit on the highway waiting for the NASCAR rigs coming in from out of state heading to Infineon Raceway back in the days when they ran the Food City 500. They would set up postion and bust every rig coming in and in many cases tried to turn them around after collecting hefty fines.

    Again I ask...why don't the toter manufacturers and dealers get together to lobby the DOT for a change in the law? There needs to be a seperation in the laws of operation between legitimate full time commercial carriers and legitimate part time recreational racers or rodeo-ers or whatever. NASCAR was sucessful. They got the drom box change, overall length and KPRA which was a huge change in the law.

    RG
     
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    Last edited: Aug 18, 2006
  2. LaDon

    LaDon New Member

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    Blwnaway is right tho if you earn 1 single penny if they want to get picky about it then it makes it a commercial vehicle. I happen to work in the transportation industry and that is a true statement. The reason for that is all the ppl that are hauling cars on car trailers behind pickups, motorhomes and so forth that are doing it for hire and earning money for it. Unfortunately that includes racing other than for hire you are able to win some money. Money changing hands whether winning it or paying someone to haul is what they are going by and that makes it a commercial vehicle in their eyes. Not in mine but it does theirs and they are the ones enforcing it. Some states are enforcing it and others are not. Yet. I hate to say it but even if a person is just camping cause they are in their 70s I do believe they should have to take a test to make sure they are compitant to drive one but that is a whole nother ballgame. Have fun with this guys
     
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  3. lowcountry71

    lowcountry71 New Member

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    randy - you appear to be well versed and educated on these issue - does calif let you use the 100 air mile radius exemption for logging? is your state prepared to handle the motorhomes in the scales or POE with true RV drivers regardless of their age or gender? does california check the tires on the motorhome for their weight rating? does california allow a true motorhome to pull a vehicle on a car dolly with a boat attached to the car? i'm interested in what calif is doing - it appears where your state goes - so goes the rest of the country - its only a matter of time.
     
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  4. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Answers:

    Yes.

    Winnebego motorhomes are popped for overlength in some states (BA sold his and bought another a few feet shorter so he could pull his enclosed motorcycle type trailer because he was popped) and this discussion is based on typical Toter/trailer race combinations. I haven't followed the discussions about concerns for elderly 80+ year old folks driving their Prevost down the Ridge Route. I know there are some rules but haven't been interested enough to check.

    Again, I'm not an RVer. We were over 15,000 pounds on the front axle of my 2003 Freightliner/Toter (and it came with front tires rated at 7,250 each= 14,500 total rating). Before we went to Seattle last year I asked Larry Miner to change out the front tires with heavy duty ones so we wouldn't be too heavy according to the weight rating. He did, and when he was on his way to Seattle driving my rig he got the red light going in Oregon. The LEO came out of his work area with a small Mag light, leaned over the front tires, looked at the weight rating (numbers) saw we were good, went back inside and gave us the green light. Larry thinks we'd still be there if we hadn't changed the tires.

    Most people with big HP toters like ours was don't realize how heavy the front axle is on their trucks. Especially when you have 200 gallons of diesel in the tanks. For safety' sake you should check. 15,000+ is very common. Because of our sliding 5th wheel hitch we were able to shift some of the weight off the front axle. With no trailer hooked up we were heavier on the front than we were with the trailer hooked up.

    I've seen duallies towing 5th wheel travel trailer towing boats behind the travel trailer. I was told you needed a CDL with an endorsement for doubles to do it, but again, I'm not an RV'r and have never bothered to check. You can go to the CA DOT website and look. There's a lot of happy reading to be had over there.

    RG
     
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  5. trucker

    trucker New Member

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    In Texas rvs are permitted to pull multi trailers. No special permit required.
    But if you have haz-mat in reportable quainty you must have a haz mat indorsment on your license. Even if you are riding a skateboard.
    as for as tires 315/80 22.5 are rated for 8600 lbs (18 ply)65 mph rated and will fit on a standard 22.5 wheel and 10,000 for 20 ply but these are only rated for 55 mph.
     
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  6. therealspeedster

    therealspeedster Jr. Dragster

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    i have had my cdl for about 11years now and drive truck for alivin.
    i have been pulled in many times and had my fuel sample taken from the tank by the tax man.
    the guy will come up ask if he can take a sample of you fuel? he will wait for your answer. if you say yes he will hand you a sheet of paper that tells you what he is doing and your rights.
    if you say no he rights the driver of the rig a $1000. ticket and the ownner of the rig recieves a $10,000. fine! even if your fuel passes! so remember if they ask just let them take the sample even if you are running red! you will still get hammered either way! i read the paper work and was shocked.
    they take the sample right your plate number on it and seal it and send it in for fuel check. if your fuel dont pass you will be mailed a ticket.
    they have done a check on my dodge dually once since i have ownned it and it was much the same as the big truck.
    there was a line of pickups and rv's and a couple of them were sitting off to the side with stickers on the window from the irs???? the inspector said they had illegal fuel and the rigs were being impounded.:eek:
     
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  7. blwnaway

    blwnaway Member

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    Contact your local Commercial Vehicle office and pick up a FREE copy of the Federal Highway Administrations Rules and Guidelines for Commercial Vehicles. Better yet contact a state other than California as they add to the FHWA guidelines with their own CA rules.
     
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  8. lowcountry71

    lowcountry71 New Member

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    since we are on red fuel listen to this one. i am aware of a major trucking company who had their own terminal fuel tanks who got into this dilema - they were "caught" with red fuel on a random POE audit. the audit trail showed the fuel was delivered incorrectly by their fuel supplier. the trucking company had 2 10,000 gallon tanks and 1 was contaimed and 1 was not. the fuel drop company pulled red and delivered it by "mistake". both companies received fines. the most going to the fuel delievery company. the trucking company was able to reduce it's fine by changing it's fuel drop procedure to "white bucket" every compartment on the fuel drop. by the way that same fuel supplier ended up firing the employee who dropped the fuel and he ultimately got some of the fines. but he claimed it was delivered wrong from the pipeline. it just goes to show how our society has "learned" to "pass the buck" on accountability and individual responsibility.
     
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  9. flash

    flash top alcohol

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    red fuel

    OK,I will ask-what is red fuel,and if it's illegal who uses it and what for?
     
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  10. nitromilt

    nitromilt New Member

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    red fuel is diesel fuel with sulfer still in the fuel.Red fuel is only used in off road applications such as farm tractors,combines,refrigerator units on semi trailers.This fuel is not taxed for hiway use,therfore it is considerably cheaper.
     
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  11. TAF 316

    TAF 316 Member

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    LOL.... I can relate to that I was coming home from Firebird driving my dually and our 40'er I was passing the slower trucks on the down side of the grapevine and got pulled over at the bottom.

    The CHP officer said I couldnt be in the #1 lane with my combo and I played dumb. as he asked where I was coming from and what was in the trailer.

    When I handed him my CDL he looked at me and pointed out I knew better, then asked if I had any shirts or hats. I didnt have any of ours but happen to have some of another team I was bringing home for Nephew and I offerd them up. With a polite warning he let me go
     
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  12. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    I am one of those on unsure ground and the hassle is likely cheaper than the over zealous fines. I dug this up from the Illinois site.
    .
    You need a Commercial Driver's License if you operate:
    Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, providing the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
    .
    Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
    .
    Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
    .
    A vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials

    .
    Then this:
    Recreational Vehicle Operators Exempt (Waived)
    Illinois waives CDL requirements for drivers of a recreational vehicle that is operated primarily as family/personal conveyance for recreational purposes. This includes motor homes and travel trailers.

    .
    I could not find the word "commercial or for pay, etc" anywhere. The hazardous materials sentence could put a spin on it.
    .
    I am kind of thinking in reading this that Illinois isn't too shook up about it yet?
    I did discover that the CDL process is not a one stop shopping deal. WE have the DMV, The state police, the department of transportation, the doctor, and a company for fingerprints if the hazardous materials comes into play.
    .
    What else should I be looking for or are you guys talking about a federal deal?
    Later
    Dave Koehler
    www.koehlerinjection.com
     
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    Last edited: Aug 19, 2006
  13. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

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    I think the "commercial, recreational" thing isn't going to pop up under whether you need a cdl, but whether you need a usdot/yourstate dot authority(they call it authority, meaning permission to operate)

    http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov

    there's a link on the left side that says "who must comply". the only confusing part is the term "interstate commerce". If your racing team is sponsored, I'd say it could reasonably be called commerce. If you pay your own bills, who knows. We have our company's name on the side of the car, does that mean that we're sponsored by the company we own? It could get confusing in a hurry. I think RG had a good idea earlier. Get a cdl, and keep log books and everything even if you register it has a motorhome. At least it would show that you're trying to do the right thing if you get pulled over. I still won't be pulling into the scales, though. I think that may be just asking for trouble.



    bryan
     
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  14. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    Thanks for the link. While looking up their definition of commercial vehicle....
    I get this that only a lawyer could love. If I read that right a crew cab dually all by it's lonesome could get hammered.:rolleyes:
    .
    A commercial motor vehicle is any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle: (1) has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)—or a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW)—of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or (2) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers, including the driver, for compensation; or (3) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, whether or not it is used to transport passengers for compensation; or (4) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C.
     
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  15. lowcountry71

    lowcountry71 New Member

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    i think we are all getting the feeling about the can of worms the motorhome/trailer question. i carry a CDL, have a log book available, have a DVIR available and have available MSDS for certain items. i think there is some wise advice going on here to recommend to try and have these items and stay out of the chicken coops unless directly invited. my 2 cents worth is try to stay away from placing a DOT #s on your vehicle - this opens way too many things that ultimately will abuse us as racers. just a thought for the DOT # scenario - once you enter this field you will be required to do random drug testing and document. not that i don't think this is a bad idea - but - the logistics, cost, details, documentation of performing these tests for the purpose of using a CDL and DOT #s on your vehicle is nothing short of a bad nightmare. another item - once you place DOT #s on the vehicles are the insurance costs go out of sight vs a motorhome pulling a trailer. i think the biggest concern we see with the motorhome/trailer dilema is the inconsistly of the law between states. we should know our home state's laws and the degree of enforcement. then try to educate ourselves on the states we plan on traveling thru. one set of rules for all would be the best case scenario but at this time and place that thought is only a dream.
     
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  16. HEMIdude

    HEMIdude New Member

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    In regards to the interstate commerce issue, my friend who just arned his CDL at a driving school in Ohio and was instructed that Interstate Commerce has less to do with earning money with what your hauling than it has to do with specifically being paid to transport something. Racers "make" money racing... not hauling race cars. Yes we have to haul them to get them to the track... but nobody is paying us just or specificall to haul them. If we have to have a CDL for hauling stuff we make money with, every tradesmen witha dually would need one. Perhaps business executives may need on for hauling their laptop and briefcase in their Lincoln. Maybe there's truth to needing MSDS papers for hauling that white-out mention earler in this thread?
     
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  17. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

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    the thing about being paid to haul is for "for hire" companies. If your company is hauling it's own stuff, and is above the gvwr limit, you will get a "private carrier" dot number. That would be what all racer's would classify under. And yes, according to the usdot, anybody with a dually hauling anything accross state lines technically should have a usdot #. crazy
     
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