2013 Weight Break TAD/TAFC

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by underby6, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Chuck Anderika

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    Hi Wayne, No reason to ask NHRA. It's already in the rule book. 5 lbs for every inch over 466 = 2320 minus 50 for converter=2270 with 522 with lencodrive. will miss you in F/C
     
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  2. anthony

    anthony Member

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    Gizmo I have a dog in the fight actually two dogs both afuel cars. But thanks for the concern.
    And actually beings that we are the most penalized of combo's I feel like we deserve a little kick in our direction I would gladly accept a 50 lbs. break. Or maybe even a percent back. Just sayin.


    Anthony Dicero
     
    #42
  3. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    524" cid -.500s.d. in a TAD w/ no weight penalty; now we're cooking in oil!

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
    #43
  4. aaron booher

    aaron booher New Member

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    I wonder if the blower people were saying the exact same thing when the a-fuel first started running.
     
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  5. anthony

    anthony Member

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    Aaron I am pretty sure that isn't how it went for the a fuel cars in the beginning considering I am standing next to 4 pallets of obsolete parts that had to be purchased every year that they dinged the a fuel car weight and percentage. So I don't think that's how the blown guys felt. Pretty sure when a fuel cars started guys like Stark, Enriquez and Topping were laughed out of the track Cuz there combo struggled to be competitive in super comp!

    Just to be clear Gizmo what dog is yours ?
     
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  6. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    The a-fuel setup has the capability, consistently proven, to run low 5.20's. The same can be said for the blown/clutch cars, although not as consistent or as easily. The automatic can run very hard until the 1/8th mi., but then loses ground on its class counterparts. The setup is different but also similar in regards to powertrain with the clutch (blown) setup. There is only so much a converter can do to keep up, a weight break certainly won't level the field but it's a move in the right direction. Anyone complaining with a setup other than an automatic needs to look no further than the competitors with their setup running in the class. You don't see guys running an automatic, who aren't performing as well as the best (automatics), saying that they deserve more of a bump than the fifty pounds.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  7. anthony

    anthony Member

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    I am not asking them to change the rules to help me keep up in the class with cars similar to mine. Or whatever you were trying to say underby6 .I am wondering how out of the kindness of nhra heart they felt it was necessary to make a rule change to help a struggling combo.?. Never seen this kinda of consideration before. Makes me want to switch combos .

    Personally I feel the should just leave everything alone and continue the way it is. Do I think 50 lbs will help you ? Not really. But if this doesn't help what will they do next to help? And where will it end at? When a-fuel cars weren't competitive and struggling and need help in the beginning they told them switch combos or shut up and run your car! The rule changes came when they (afuel cars)started whipping there asses.

    But before I offend anymore I will just go back to workin on my junk in hopes of being able to qualify and or keep up... See you in Pomona
     
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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  8. afuelracer

    afuelracer Member

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    The bottom line is if you aren't competitive then put a clutch in it and if the blower cars aren't competitive then switch to afuel. The same way with if the afuel car isn't competitive then switch to a blower. Or shut up and run your car. That's what all the afuel cars had to do until they started becoming competitive. The arguments made on both sides of this were made several times with the afuel vs the blown "clutch" cars years ago and the thing is if your not fast enough then u need to work on the combo you chose to run(blown, "clutch or converter" or afuel) but you shouldn't be looking for a handout from NHRA to make your car competitive

    Tony Samsel
     
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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  9. Gizmo

    Gizmo Member

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    Maybe people will have to sell their stuff and buy a torque converter setup if they want to be competitive in the future?

    Steve L.
     
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  10. badfast

    badfast Member

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    I think what is missing here is I do not believe there was any racer running an automatic that went to NHRA looking for a 50lbs weight break.

    I am not sure why NHRA thought to give out the weight break but it happened. To be honest weight is not the issue with the converter car being competitive.
    Converter technology has made huge gains in the last few years, but there is alot to be learned yet.

    I work on an automatic TAD and drive a screwblown promod with an automatic.We as a automatic combination have alot of work to do before we are competitive on a national event scale.

    Weight or a lock up converter is not going to make us a .20 to teen player, but I think the automatic side of this deal will offer a 3rd viable combination to run and also make things a little more attractive to upcoming racers from other classes.
     
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  11. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    I don't think anyone is pointing fingers at anyone about begging NHRA for a bone for converters. Everyone I know running a converter isn't complaining about their level of competition with the combo, as they know it's a conscious choice to be different and they struggle like the rest of us.

    I don't think anybody is fully exploiting any combination yet, but some are closer than others. And maybe all my dealings with Pro Stock have swayed my feelings about heads up classes, but to me the point of the whole thing that upsets me is making exceptions for combinations. It's hard enough policing two different engine and driveline packages. And now converter cars are being treated as a 3rd (at least in Dragster). Roots, wedges and smallblocks are options too with different weight breaks and engine/driveline rules. Don't see too many of those around anymore in TA.. But now NHRA makes exceptions for converters too? Converter drives definitely aren't a cheaper alternative anymore... I can see where it might be a potentially attractive option for a new team with no clutch experience or someone who doesn't have a ton of crew, but Top Alcohol classes are the 3rd and 4th quickest classes in NHRA. It's not supposed to be for everybody, and it isn't supposed to be easy or cheap. The people who run these classes are here because they REALLY want to be and work their asses off to run at this level. Otherwise you realize how much money and time you're spending to do it, sell it all, buy a boat and fill it to the brim with smokin' hot 21 year old girls. ;)

    My biggest concern is the whole fact of sub-dividing the classes without calling it a different class. TAD is already split and keeping parity is hard enough on everybody. If you want to run this class, here are the rules. Everybody else went this way, you choose a different path from the rest within these rules, you pay the price until you get it to work and be competitive or you give up and follow the rest of the pack where there is a wealth of information available. I don't want converters to go away, but I don't think there should be any exceptions made in the name of diversification. NHRA affirmative action:)D) rules have no place heads up classes.

    I just think it starts a dangerous precedent where racers could start lobbying Tech for "well, I don't have a Cantrell coated blower, or a new blueprinted blower or the latest Carbon injector from DMPE. Where's my handout?" And eventually Top Alcohol turns in to 5 second Comp racing with 50 sub classes and handicapped starts. The first thing I'm asking Santa Collins and Santa Blackwell for will be 125 over for Veney funny cars. Our Combustion chambers are pretty big and we need the extra air volume to be competitive. :)
     
    #51
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  12. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    Although not printed yet, lockup converter drive units will not be allowed in NHRA competition.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
    #52
  13. Dan Olson

    Dan Olson New Member

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    I've no longer got a dog in this fight as they say, but I guess I still check in here and see what's going on from time to time. I've been following this discussion and I have to say I'm baffled by it. On one hand we've got the Pro Sportsman Association formed with the express intent of reviving this (arguably) dying class and trying to generate more enthusiasm and media coverage for the class and for that I commend them greatly. The media coverage for the class has increased immensely this last year and it's all directly related to them and all of Todd's effort in covering everyone in the sport. I don't mean to bring them up for any reason other than to give them kudos and to recognize the fact that an association like this has needed to be formed to keep the class alive and to promote it like the class that it in fact is. Everyone knows the cost of running one of these cars and the lack of respect and monetary payback that comes from it... I know that the check at the end of the weekend is all but irrelevant in the cost of the whole program but obviously bigger is better here and the goal would be to achieve that, and maybe not being parked in the mud or lake in some cases just can't hurt.

    All that said, and I'm sorry if I've gone off on a tangent I should not have, but, my question is why is this 50 pound weight break for the converter cars such a huge deal and why all the opposition to it? We all know this is probably not gonna make a teen or 20's car out of what has at best has been a 30's car (kudos to Brandon and team) unless the stars align, and if so, what in the world is so wrong with that? You've got a car that's on at least equal footing with the rest and one more car on tour gaining data to make their combination better as well as media and sponsor exposure for their team and the whole class, and hey if they beat up on the A/Fuel and clutched blown cars then more power to them... drag racing was built on innovation and trying new things... right? I'm not saying make it into a fast comp class or anything of the sort, and I know parity has finally been achieved for the most part in the dragster class.

    I've been there and done it and lost to a converter car with a car that should not have and those of you that know me and talked to me that night know how fired up I was about it... and beat a converter car too shooting spark plug pieces out at 1000 feet or so... lost to a lot more clutched blown cars and hey beat a couple here and there too... my whole point that probably could have been made in 3 sentences is that class diversity is not such a bad thing... what's it really hurting to have another car or hopefully multiple cars out there working on and improving an "unconventional" setup if the rules "favor" them somehow?

    If there are 2 converter cars at the end of the year banquet in pomona taking home trophies then I guess you can all tell me how wrong I was... but I'm gonna go ahead and guess that they will be clutch cars and I might even go as far as to say they might be burning the same fuel... rules can be changed (and are... look at the nitro rules over the last couple years)... why not just see what the converter cars can do and lets just adjust from there.

    Dan Olson
     
    #53
  14. Chris Demke

    Chris Demke Super Comp

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    Yeah, what Dan said. Converter technology is advancing and has become popular in other classes. If giving converter cars a small weight break draws more competitors into TAD/TAFC then that is a good thing. If converter cars start to exceed the performance of the two popular combinations then adjust and give them back the 50lbs.

    Chris
     
    #54
  15. eli

    eli Banned

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    Conspiracy theory: pro teams are having trouble getting enough clutch discs so they get nhra to push the converters in the alcohol classes?[/QUOTE]

    If that were the case, They should ban the pedal clutch and make every one run a crower glide or another brand name glide.;)
     
    #55
  16. jeffj

    jeffj Member

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    Agree totally with what Chris said. Also, I don't think that many cars are at minimum weight and to get 50 lb under any car's current weight would be expensive. Are the converter cars a bunch lighter than clutch cars and carrying balast? Alternately, bigger engines but that too is costly and perhaps not really helpful regarding torque.
    To me of much more concern is that this change has been implimented with no apparent consultation nor input from the current alcohol reps nor Will's group. That about says it all as far as I am concerned.
    Jeff Johnsen
     
    #56
  17. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    While only speaking for myself, there are very few converter cars out there so I'll assume I'm pretty close to the norm. The converter setup weighs more than a clutch setup. I don't know of anyone carrying ballast, unless it's on the front end to get a certain percentage up there. The bigger engine is an idea, the problem is we have to add 5# per cube over 466cid. In a perfect world I'd like to have a 524" motor out of a -.500 short deck block. To do this I'd have to add somewhere around 290# to the min. weight rules. I spoke to NHRA last week and they feel the weight break should be worth three to four hundredths. If you were heavy, like us, prior to this and are able to get all the weight off....maybe you will see some more out of that projected performance improvement. They told me the performance projections were based off of previous weight breaks issued to similar cars. As far as consulting etc. with PSA or the sub-committees; none of them run a converter car. I don't think I'd be speaking out on what they'd say to that based on a number of the responses to this topic on this site.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #34
     
    #57
  18. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    Speaking from a PSA standpoint, there really isn't a standpoint. The intent and spirit of the group is to not get involved with rules. PSA is strictly for promoting the classes to fans and tracks. And please don't take what I've been preaching about opening pandora's box on rules changes in the name of parity as something representing the PSA. Just my own personal opinions(not even as a clutch mfg.) and feelings as someone who has invested a lot of blood, sweat, tears and beers into the classes. If it betters the class, then I'll eat crow. If they came out and knocked percentage out of A/Fuel, the Veney motor breaks I've been joking about, or someone using an East/West clutch vs a Crower, I'd be just as vocal against any of those as I am this. To me it just defeats the purpose of having a heads up class. Look at the mess the scooters turned in to over parity with different combos.
     
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  19. Gizmo

    Gizmo Member

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    A 5.34 @ 271 at the Lucas Oil Race in Indy, the converter seems to be gaining competitiveness.

    Steve L.
     
    #59
  20. Gizmo

    Gizmo Member

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    We are at the midpoint of the season, to me it appears we are all still alive and the weight break hasn't ruined the class.

    Steve L.
     
    #60

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