Tuning by watching rod bearings

Discussion in 'PSI Superchargers Tech Questions' started by SoDak, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    How much can your rod bearings widen before you say its lean enough? .005"?
     
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  2. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    Why would you want to tune like that? If the bearing is smashed then you are detonating. Why not tune by reading the plugs. If you are detonating you are losing power.
     
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  3. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

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    I don't tune to the rod bearings but I know that some people do. I have some squezed out and I was just wondering what others were doing.

    I push my stuff as hard as parts can handle and then work on making those failing parts able to handle it. At some point it will likely be bearings that are failing.

    Not sure that detonating is reducing power...
     
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  4. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    Yes, detonation is not optimum combustion so you will lose some power based on how much detonation in how many cylinders.
     
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  5. ITS IN MY BLOOD

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    So Mike,...Are you saying if the a/f ratio is perfect and the timing perfect on a Stout and stellar run your bearings will show no squish..????


    Vic
     
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  6. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    plugs.jpg

    Rich or Lean Mike? :cool:
     
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  7. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    Is this a frigging test? Hard photo to read but they look mixed. Down to the right looks close to being right but boy some of those look funny. How many runs on these plugs? Show me those plugs at Indy in person and I can tell you more. We also have beer.

    Vic I have never squished a bearing on a run where the plugs look like the way I want them to and nothing broke. That is about 98 to 100% frosty with no heat past the first thread. Truthfully I don't see much difference in ET between 80% frosty and 100% frosty. Maybe a real small mph increase but that is not what wins races.

    Now I don't want to piss anybody off but these are my thoughts. Be nice to me. I am not going to give away some of the secrets I have learned so I will keep it at a high level.
    Tuning Roots blown methanol motor over the years hasn't changed much for some people and to me is pretty old fashion. I have observed some racers that do nothing but tear their motors up trying to run fast then there are guys that run faster and hardly ever tear up a motor. Having the bearings just barely smash all evenly just after the finishline means that the car was super lean right to the finishline and detonated just after the finishline right before shutdown. So now one knows what the tuneup was right at the end of the run and that is also applies to reading the plugs also. You can say that the cylinders are balanced but what about the AFR during the rest of the run. Most of the ET is gained in the 0 to 330 ft area and to me that is more important than 330 and on. 330 and on is all HP and gives you MPH and you are along for the ride. Just look at the boost in the first part of the run and you will see it is lower at specific RPMs than it is at the same RPM at the end of the run because of the ram air effect on the injector hat so maybe you don't need as much fuel down low as you think you do. So leaning it out at the end also leans it out in the first part of the run where the boost is lower and betters your 330 ft times and you final ET. So in my opinion some people think that super lean is good. I am not saying that you don't need to lean it out some during the second half because you do but no where near what is required to smash a bearing. The temperatture of that air in the manifold is increasing during the run and the Density Altitude inside that motor is going higher so less fuel is needed (don't confuse this with a screw blower tuneup). To get a stable constant AFR during a run takes some fuel control. The more constant the AFR the more power you are going to have the whole run. The hard thing is putting it all down on the track especially for a promod with a 4-Link.
     
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  8. JimW

    JimW Member

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    Mike,

    can you expand on this a bit please???

    Thanks, Jim
     
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  9. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    A Roots blower creates lots of heat from the rotor seals rubbing against each other and against the case. As you progress through the run the temperature of the air in the manifold increases. This heat raises the Density Altitude and therefore needs less fuel to maintain the correct AFR
     
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  10. AFC357

    AFC357 New Member

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    This is "good stuff" and why I love this site...makes ya think!;) When we are working on a new combo, we like to look and measure "squish" on EVERY rod bearing after EVERY pass till we get the thing sorted out. Do you (they) call this tuning by measuring squish??!! Not saying this is how we tune a motor, but how we tell if the motor is "happy" ...we tune it to get rid of some of the "squish" ...fuel, timing, compression....Now I have personally witnessed a fellow FC racer a couple years ago...timing retards did NOT work on the pass....ran BIG numbers (like #1) but detonated so bad he broke a main cap! Just adding to the constructive conversation we have going on here....can a detonating motor make power??!! Got ya all thinking now???
     
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  11. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    It was the ignition advance that was the cause of the increased power but the detonation was taking power away at the same time. This is why the nitrous guys are now spraying water into their engines to stop detonation and then they can advance the timing and make more power.
     
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  12. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    Okay okay.. Those plugs were out of a Top Fuel dragster.. Where, incidently, they turn rod bearings into thrust bearings every lap.
     
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  13. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    But would those bearings in a TF dragster be beat up because they can't take the 900 to 1000 HP push from each piston being slammed down the cylinder? Thanks, I have never seen plugs out of a TF motor. Wouldn't know how to read them or if there was any point in reading them.
     
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  14. JustinatAce

    JustinatAce Member

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    There really isn't a way to read them. If there is ground strap and porcelain left, you've accomplished something. They watch piston sag and EGT's..

    As for the bearings.. Between the power, boost and 60 degrees of timing just does horrible things to bearings.
     
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  15. Dale Finch

    Dale Finch Member

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    Im going to jump in here and give my two cents worth. To me it is simple....a detonating engine won't make as much power as if you stopped it from detonating. I have measured a lot of rod bearings and it takes a discipline to keep track of them run after run but on an alcohol engine its hard to push a V bearing more than .001. And I have run them on the leaner side. I know this is ITA but to demonstrate, on a nostalgia funny car even when the piston is burned up bad, the rings are busted and the rod is hurt...I have measured the bearing and its still not pushed. Nitro is a lot more violent than alcohol. We just had a situation in super air where it went 232 killing the pistons. Took major steps to fix the detonation and it went out and ran 247 top speed on the very next run.

    Now top fuel...they push so hard they hit the bearing beside it....LOL thats another story but it has 100+gpm pump and can burn huge volumes!!!!
     
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