Traction Control

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Dave Germain, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    After the first round of the Top Alcohol classes at Seattle the winners were handed a note stating that all drive shaft sensors, clutch sensors and front wheel sensors had to be disconnected before the second round. I was waiting to see if anybody mentioned that. The order was rescinded later. Rumor has it that there was something about a suspected traction control use? Dave Germain
     
    #1
  2. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    4
    #2
  3. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or they could just look at Racepak for abnormal timing issues. Taking away one of the most important items for tuning the car is asinine. The cars go slower with TC on, if you run one you will be caught and nobody will ever think of you the same. I'd find it hard to believe anybody with much of a car would use such an item. I wonder how much of this is suspected use vs someone can't tune their car so they accuse others of illegal activities/ components.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #323
    Torque MGMT. - Owner
     
    #3
  4. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    4
    Not everyone logs timing.
     
    #4
  5. clint thompson

    clint thompson Authorized Merchant

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    0
    You make a couple very good points Brandon. The idea of disconnecting all our speed sensors was absurd. Not going to prove anything. I asked repeatedly what sort of conclusion this little experiment would provide and no one was able to give me one. I asked if we do this and I spin the tires next round, does that make me a cheater? There are 1000 ways to spin the tires besides disconnecting your traction control. I don't want to believe I am racing against cheaters and would be willing to do whatever to smoke em out, but this was not going to do anything except hurt everyone who was still in the race. This is data we need to run our cars and data that we have a right to have, for the next round, the next race, or even coming back next year. Taking it away without a well thought out reason that they could come to a conclusion about the TC issue was a bad idea and fortunately they realized that and changed course. I was surprised at how many racers were not really upset by it. I was furious.
    I suggested the idea of looking at the computer to a tech official who told me "it's too easy for you guys to hide it there in all the squiggly lines" to which I replied you just need someone who understands what they are looking at (maybe get Todd Paton to teach them). I also brought up the point that TC is legal in the ADRL which I participated in last year and none of the fast guys run it because it slows the car down. The cars have to be on the edge to go fast. TC smooths all the edginess out. I told Collins, if NHRA is concerned about people using it and they are admitting that they cannot police it, then you should just make if legal. I think he thought I was crazy. He said, "you don't think whoever has the most money and can hire the best electical engineer would win all the races then?" I told him no and I stand by it. If you cannot police it, you should just allow it. THen nobody has to worry about anyone "cheating" with it.
     
    #5
  6. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    1,836
    Likes Received:
    6
    Nailed it, Clint. People don't understand that in order for traction control to work it slows the car down to do it.
     
    #6
  7. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interference would register on the rpm readout - but interference is common regardless, hence the use of smoothing rates. As far as hiring an elec. engineer - no I don't believe that to be possible.....like AT ALL. They're focusing on the wrong stuff, traction control, auto shifters, lockup converters.... Who the hell knows why. Personally I'd like to have more policing on cylinder heads. You want to talk about spending money and what can be done with ample budget....

    For the record I could care less - if you want to cheat that's your problem - I hope those that do feel horrible when they look at their trophy collection (if they have one). I will never sit here and bitch about what others have and I don't - wish others would follow suit. I don't know that I've seen bigger whining brats in my life than what I've experienced this year in TA.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #323
    Torque MGMT. - Owner
     
    #7
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  8. doug_ta

    doug_ta Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0

    Guys, That is exactly why T/C should not be legal ,

    Once a PERFECT run is factored in as a BASELINE to the T/C unit and then IF the next run the car tries to spin the tyres trying to go faster ,the T/C will SLOW the car down and SAVE the let's get greedy run from being a disaster.

    Presto-- you have a repeat run that is still fast..

    Some guy's that use it will stage out of the groove so the unit will actually do it's job. This is when the track is usually marginal at best.

    Doug
     
    #8
  9. Dale Finch

    Dale Finch New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    You should show them Clint what the drive line looks like on a 5.50 run and maybe they would realize TC would interfere with it. LOL...At least I assume there is a calculated speed there.

    There was a TC manufacturer at PRI with a unit smaller than a mini ipod as the control box. It still could be found if they suspected someone of using one.

    Taking data away for a run seems like a huge penalty and could really hurt equipment. Seems pretty drastic to me. They don't understand.
    Dale
     
    #9
  10. clint thompson

    clint thompson Authorized Merchant

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    0
    I bet most do if you are manipulating it with TC
     
    #10
  11. larrymiersch

    larrymiersch Authorized Merchant

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2003
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    2
    Heads............

    I completely agree with you on the head situation. Throw in blocks as well.
    -L
     
    #11
  12. Lean it 5

    Lean it 5 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Has anyone noticed how much a car slows down with tire shake?
     
    #12
  13. pennance

    pennance Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a novel idea..... which i KNOW has never been discussed here lol. Separate the alcohol cars from the nitro cars and get rid of all these silly rules and get back to the days of 100% and any kinda blower you want and run what you brung. Sure sometimes money would dictate the winners from losers. But in essence guys are we not here to innovate and push the envelope in this class? Or are we here to set our dial in and run the number? Which direction does it appear to you all its going?

    Me personally i thought this class was a Semi-Pro class to prepare us to run a Pro class.

    NOTE: My views do not always follow conventional wisdom or political correctness.
     
    #13
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  14. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    The separation won't happen, that doesn't even need to be discussed. As far as innovation; the rules are present for a reason. A team with millions could order blanks from BAE and have heads far superior to what the normal teams could afford. Although money doesn't solve all of this; you still need someone who knows what to do with blanks, again money buys that. With the present rules the playing field is pretty even in TAD - really no discrepancy ever in TAFC. There is far more in these cars than any of us know about - look at Whiteley and the 5.17 @ 277 pass. Innovation doesn't always have to be in the form of trick of the week stuff, proper application of power is innovative in itself. The timing control technology has really come a long ways, legal and illegal, I think NHRA is a bit behind the times but I know they're working hard to be above par. If a guy can afford $5-7k for a Davis box you can bet your ass he can afford (read: has) a $300 option from Leahy to monitor timing. That individual can even likely afford the high end option from Racepak that also monitors phase. There is nothing to be hidden with squiggly lines, your curve in your timing controller either matches what's on the screen or it doesn't - no need for unplugging speed sensors. Like mentioned above, a guy like Todd P. and/or Dave Leahy/Chris Miller could easily point them in the right direction if they needed it.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #323
    Torque MGMT. - Owner
     
    #14
  15. pennance

    pennance Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2009
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brandon I 100% agree the separation topic is useless to discuss. And unless the teams that are out there now have millions im not aware of, the deal with the heads is exactly what Larry is referring to. Its happening now without the millions. I respectfully disagree that the field is fairly even. If the corrected altitude is above 4,000 feet corrected its the alcohol cars race to win and below its a crap shoot who wins. 94% is what made that a reality. I was joking with an A/fuel tuner the other day that the A/fuel guys should just take the summer off and run in spring and fall.

    What im saying is that if you have witnessed this class form its roots money has always dominated this class, along with innovators. And the marriage of the two is what has advanced this sport and this class. Not one or the other.

    In my world TAD is a prep class for folks who might want to run Top Fuel in the future when this class is and will be dumped by NHRA period. And as we know money drives EVERYTHING in Top Fuel. Its when super comp racers want to almost make it a dial in class so they can run it. Or when NHRA wants to tell us were entertainers, not drag racers and we should fall in line, that's when i get bent.
     
    #15
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  16. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yet they have the advantage when the air is really good, I don't see the issue here? I think NHRA has given us a great place to run, this from someone who grew up running "outlaw" races. I've been the bastard child for a long time, with NHRA you have a safe place to race, good publicity (ESPN2), guaranteed payout, parity, etc.. Is it perfect?, no of course we all would like to MAKE money drag racing. It's funny though, we all do this because it's fun supposedly. Yet when the stars don't align I hear about boating, classic cars, what have you....none of that stuff is cheap and you don't get paid a dime to go to the lake. I believe as long as Lucas is fluid (pun intended) the TA classes will be around and fruitful.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #323
    Torque MGMT. - Owner
     
    #16
  17. Hemi101

    Hemi101 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2011
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Really disappointing!

    I run a TA/FC and have been for years now it is now FINALLY somewhat of a competitive car and we have worked really hard to get it that way "LEGALLY". Im not smart enough to cheat nor would I as the owner of my car would never forgive me. But i find it horrible that we know some of these guys are using these Davis pieces and we cant police it? I didnt even know they existed until yesterday via this website and this is my first post in years. I actually called Davis to inquire just exactly how they worked and what they are worth. 4000.00 and on the shelf and you can set them up via bluetooth??? It makes me wonder why I bother to try and go out and compete with people we know are using these devices. Hiding them in MSD ignition boxes or where ever there has to be a way to track this deal as it is getting out of hand. What do you guys think about one person being an actual "Alcohol Police" guy and his job is to try and get a handle on this issue at the track. We would all have to give in to his or hers inspection requests and the person would have to have the knowledge of both BAE, Miner, and the A fuel classes to a tee. I know it would cost money and all racers would have to chip into the fund to do something like this but I know our team being a medium funded team on the ladder out there would jump on board to something like this but wonder would the rest? And the rest of the posts are right its not just the TC its the entire what you cant see to the naked eye stuff that can be compromised illegally. I am willing to do whatever it takes to help weed out the people that dont deserve the Sunday Wally!
     
    #17
  18. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,280
    Likes Received:
    37
    Tc

    I think it's safe to say if someone wanted to run traction control and didn't want to get caught, they could.

    NHRA traced our driveshaft leads in Gainesville and they also hooked a 'tattle tail' up to the MSD Power Grid box to see if we have ever ran the MSD ARC Module (MSD brand traction control).

    The problem is it's such a grey area and unless you really have experience with it, you don't really know what it can and can't do. So it grows into somewhat of an urban legend.

    Even if you could see something fishy on the timing trace, you would have a hard time proving it was not a 'glitch' or malfunction of some sort without finding a hard part, wire, etc.

    It would probably be easier in the long run to just legalize it and then you could buy the cheaper non stealth versions rather than spending the money to hide it somewhere. The MSD ARC module may not be as whiz bang as the latest Davis stuff, but it's also a $512 add on to a Power Grid. So it's well within reach of the little man.

    I think the ADRL is a great example of less rules allowing the little man to be competitive due to innovation. Guys like Frankie Taylor and Joey Martin win week in and week out right along side the unlimited budget of the Al-Anabi cars. Compare that to the stringent rules of legal Pro Mod racing, the 'haves' are able to flex their wallet to r&d superchargers and other components to push the n'th degree of the rules.
     
    #18
  19. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0

    I have multiple runs where the timing/mag current does some crazy stuff. The only way to know is to find the hard part, which is nearly impossible if it's sealed inside an msd box.
     
    #19
  20. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    0
    Generally you can use the timing, g-meter, and cylinder temps to see if something is going on. While it's not as simple as just looking at timing, interference can make it nearly impossible to read without some smoothing rate, it can be done. I personally don't believe anyone has it, it simply will not make the car run well enough to be worth it.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #323
    Torque MGMT. - Owner
     
    #20

Share This Page