Strange ignition miss in low gear only...traction control?...you decide..

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Nov 2, 2010.

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  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    First off I'd like to open with a few comments because this post is a serious accusation against a racer that happens to be my friend, him and his entire family. I hope Timo and his family don't take this personally. I am going to present the facts I have gathered as objectively as I can, and if Timo and anyone else from Werner-Habermann Racing can give me a good explanation, I would love to be wrong.

    I would also like to add that I am acting on my own. Fred Hanssen was not involved in this in any way.

    I have heard accusations of Timo cheating in some form or another since I arrived in Europe. First off, its usually a complement when people accuse you of cheating, because nobody accuses a leaker of cheating; only the fast cars get that kind of scorn. Timo, I defended you many times against these accusations over the past two years until I saw some slow motion footage of your car. That prompted me to do some more investigation on my own. While looking into the situation more, it became apparent the low gear miss was not an isolated incident, and became increasingly difficult to justify.

    With traction control being next to impossible to inforce, I feel the only way to stop it is to put it on public display. There is only two logical conclusions to these videos. Either Timo Habermann, two time defending FIA European Champion, has some sort of slew rate limiter on his car to act as a traction control device, or he has a faulty ignition system and will really haul ass when he gets it fixed. The problem is the ignition miss seems to be far to 'convienient' to be an honest ignition problem.

    Right or wrong, I'm putting my name behind this. I refuse to hide behind a screen name.

    To cut to the chase, the slow motion videos I have obtained of Timo Habermann's car shows a pretty severe ignition miss in low gear. Two of the three videos show no further 'ducks' or misfires out of the pipes down track. On these runs, the 60' times range from very good to subperb. Timo is known for being one of the quickest cars in Europe, and the world for that matter early. He has been in the .88's to 60 ft and regularly post 330 numbers in the mid 2.3's. To run those numbers certainly shows they have their 'stuff' together, but to run those numbers with a pretty severe ignition miss really throws a red flag for me.

    I've had my share of success as a tuner, but I'm a long way from being an 'expert' on these cars; there are quite a few tuners/crewmembers who I would put in that category. However I've had my share of ignition problems over the years. In every instance of an ignition problem, it slows the car down. I have also never seen a car misfire heavily in low gear (not on the high side chip) then clear up down track. Ignition problems also usually get worse over time. I've seen cars run quick early with ignition miss, but it didn't clear up down track.

    This is the first video I saw of Timo's ignition miss off the line. You will notice the car miss right at the launch, clear up, then miss one more time right before it shakes . On this pass (Q3 2010 Nitrolympx, Hockenheim Germany) Timo went .918 60' and 2.38 to 330' through tireshake. My weather station showed 2200 ft and my records show a track temp of 103 (all asphalt track)

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hiZxYtiP8pQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hiZxYtiP8pQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    This next run was from the first official race of the year, the FIA Main Event at Santa Pod Raceway (Q2)(all asphalt track). On this run, you will again see the car misfiring severely on the launch until just past 60'. There is no apparent misfires down track, even after he pedals the car. On this run he records a .894 60' time on his way to a 5.43. My records indicate corrected altitude of 462 ft and a track temperature of 60.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1_5HKplJfg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1_5HKplJfg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    The third video shows a run from the 2010 European Finals, again at Santa Pod Raceway (Q2). While not as severe, the car shows one prominent misfire right at the launch. On this run, Timo posted a .915 60' time. Conditions for the run were 1576 ft track temp of 84.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GhDWDTt-cO8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GhDWDTt-cO8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    The next video doesn't do anything to help the suspicion. This is an in car shot of Timo's car from a run at last year's Nitrolympx in Hockenheim. Being a former driver, I understand a repitition of insuring the shifters are pulled out isn't a bad idea. However what is strange is the fact he resets the playback switch on the tach 3 times from the time he puts the car in forward to prestage. First off, the taddle tale on the tach is rarely reliable. It's rarely used when you have a data logger. Even if you did use it why would it be so important (as important as making sure it's in low gear) to reset it every time the motor came off idle or moved forward?

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JHlBaU30PLc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JHlBaU30PLc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    Finally a video of a clean run for Timo. This run was a great run during Q3 of the 2010 Euro Finals at Santa Pod (the run after the one above). You see no signs of misfire and the car posts a .888 60 and runs a 5.35. Maybe they found their problem? Could be. It also could be they finally got the tuneup right and kept it off the slew rate limiter if there is one on the car.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X0rnQa8-g7M?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X0rnQa8-g7M?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


    If you talk to tuners in the ADRL, where traction control is legal, it's not something you rely on to run fast. Rather it's a buffer that widens your tuning window. If you miss on the tuneup, it can save a run that might have ordinarily lost traction without it. Traction control allows you to be more aggressive with the tuneup with less lost runs. Most of the ADRL tuners will tell you their fastest runs were when it didn't hit the traction control. Traction control is still reactive.

    If you hang enough clutch on the motor to never allow the motor to get ahead of the clutch and you have even a rudimentary rev limiter to keep the motor from reving past 'x' rpm for 'y' seconds, you have a simple but effective traction control system. The more common Davis systems use timing retard when wheelspeed becomes excessive. This would not generate the misfires or 'ducks' we see in these videos.

    There is no digital ignition box, six shooter or crank trigger on the car that I could observe. Furthermore it appears there is only a chip going in the rev chip slot. Any guesses on where such a device would be would be pure speculation, but I have a hard time digesting these videos without thinking there is something amuck going on here.

    I heard a number of strange happenings from warmups to starting line antics, etc, before these videos surfaced. Until these videos surfaced, several individuals can vouch for me that I defended you and your team. I always said I thought the combination of the whipple at 1.70 overdrive and the fact your team just had your car figured out is why you ran so good early.

    There was also the run when you smoked the tires in Finland. The whole 'haha look we smoked the tires' deal was a bit over played. I play a lot of poker, and it really seemed overboard, like a bad attempt to hide a good hand. Just my opinion.

    As I said before this isn't a personal attack on Timo or his family. I think there is enough suspicious runs to warrant a further look into this. So does anyone agree with me this looks fishy? As I said I'd love to be wrong on this deal, so if someone has a good explanation, please be my guest.

    Even if you don't want to respond Timo, the best way to put this behind you is haul ass next year with no suspicious ignition misfires in low gear. Trust me, High Definition, lots of frames per second, eyes will be on you next year.
     
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  2. Reeves Racing

    Reeves Racing New Member

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    Wow o wow!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  3. StalkerTAD

    StalkerTAD New Member

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    I'm not sure if you have evidence for such harsh accusations.

    What I can see are not good evidence.

    You should remove the entry. It could go bad for you.
     
    #3
  4. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    60'

    Stalker,

    There is a very short list of TAD's in the world that have been sub .900 60'. To do so with a serious ignition miss is very suspicious.

    Here are some things I did not elaborate on in my earlier post. This miss you see in the pipes is the same sort of header 'signature' you see when a car gets on the rev limiter under normal conditions. However, you see this misfire signature happen during a very convienient time.

    The video makes it look like the car is hitting the rev limiter throughout the first 60-100'.

    Right or wrong, I have laid out my evidence in a professional manner. Given this evidence I would do the same to anyone.

    The floor is open for your defense. The world is your audience.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  5. REEHL EQUIPMENT

    REEHL EQUIPMENT Active Member

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    Stalker, you might want to post your real name, since it's your first post.

    Will isn't hiding behind a screen name.
     
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  6. Pat McGill

    Pat McGill Member

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    The evidence as provided seems quite solid. I'd like to see another BAD in Super Slo-mo for sake of comparison.

    The tach reset button deal really has me baffled.
     
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  7. the Woz

    the Woz New Member

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    I don’t know about that car, but there are a lot of cars over the years in all the classes which seem to have the traction control, I would welcome NHRA to just allow it to be used. This would be good for keeping the cars safe and fast and take away all the nonsense.
     
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  8. underby6

    underby6 Active Member

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    --Yes that would be great for those who felt like blowing another $4500 for the latest system, says there's a new one in the works = costs more.

    Brandon Booher
    NHRA TAD #35
     
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  9. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    Will; interesting stuff! The FIA 2010 Santa Pod video possibly dosen't add much to this, except for the fact that a 5.52 on seven cyls. is stout considering that at about .52, #1 plug and wire have departed and with camera dead even at about 1.02 the fire is straight up the plug tube with no sign of a lead. ??
    Racepak or Motec ?? With a Motec, you can just about change color of a car going downtrack.

    I raced and lived through the Bill Barney (RIP) fiasco, so I understand the concern.

    (home made signature)
    Bob
    Meyer Race Cars / San Diego
    2010 Our 45th Anniversary
     
    #9
  10. Timo

    Timo Member

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    “Quote”

    First off I'd like to open with a few comments because this post is a serious accusation against a racer that happens to be my friend, him and his entire family.


    I wonder would any member of this Forum accuse someone of cheating and call them a friend at the same time?



    “Quote”

    I hope Timo and his family don't take this personally. I am going to present the facts I have gathered as objectively as I can, and if Timo and anyone else from Werner-Habermann Racing can give me a good explanation, I would love to be wrong.


    Believe me, you are wrong, but you won’t love it.

    Because fact is, you had a great Driver, the biggest budget on the TMD-FIA-Tour (I believe) and still didn’t manage to get more than 4th place out of 10 competitive cars in the Championship.

    So to me it sounds a bit like looking who´s to blame? Sorry.
    (this is my personal opinion)



    “Quote”

    I have heard accusations of Timo cheating in some form or another since I arrived in Europe.


    I wonder who set them off!!!!If someone thinks’ we are cheating, then “put your money where your mouth is” and pay the FIA-Protest Fee and the car will be checked by professional people, who know what they’re talking about.



    “Quote”

    First off, it’s usually a complement when people accuse you of cheating,


    Maybe with you, we call it an insult.



    “Quote”

    With traction control being next to impossible to inforce, I feel the only way to stop it is to put it on public display.


    I’m sure the Tech-Inspectors of the FIA have enough knowledge to find anything wrong on the car, if there would be.



    “Quote”

    There is only two logical conclusions to these videos. Either Timo Habermann, two time defending FIA European Champion, has some sort of slew rate limiter on his car to act as a traction control device, or he has a faulty ignition system and will really haul ass when he gets it fixed.


    Or maybe it’s just the way a car with a Whipple Charger performs and you don’t know it.




    “Quote”

    The problem is the ignition miss seems to be far to 'convienient' to be an honest ignition problem.


    There you’re right, this is no ignition problem, but sorry it is not a rev-limiter or anything else illegal either. It’s just a good car with the right setup and a good Crew. But thank you for that information… now we saw that we had some misfiring cylinders and we will fix that problem. Maybe we can go faster in the future.



    “Quote”

    Right or wrong, I'm putting my name behind this. I refuse to hide behind a screen name.

    That’s the only thing I can give you credit for; that you don’t hide behind a curtain, the rest you wrote “makes the grass grow green in Texas”.

    I will not comment on the videos as everybody can see for themselves.



    “Quote”

    If you talk to tuners in the ADRL, where traction control is legal, it's not something you rely on to run fast. Rather it's a buffer that widens your tuning window. If you miss on the tuneup, it can save a run that might have ordinarily lost traction without it. Traction control allows you to be more aggressive with the tuneup with less lost runs. Most of the ADRL tuners will tell you their fastest runs were when it didn't hit the traction control. Traction control is still reactive.


    I wonder which Tuner you were talking to and if you showed him the “suspicious” videos before you started accusing us of cheating.



    “Quote”

    If you hang enough clutch on the motor to never allow the motor to get ahead of the clutch and you have even a rudimentary rev limiter to keep the motor from reving past 'x' rpm for 'y' seconds, you have a simple but effective traction control system. The more common Davis systems use timing retard when wheelspeed becomes excessive. This would not generate the misfires or 'ducks' we see in these videos.


    “x for y” sounds pretty easy, guess everybody can figure that out.



    “Quote”

    There is no digital ignition box, six shooter or crank trigger on the car that I could observe. Furthermore it appears there is only a chip going in the rev chip slot. Any guesses on where such a device would be would be pure speculation, but I have a hard time digesting these videos without thinking there is something amuck going on here.


    Believe it or not, there are people in the world of Dragracing (even in Europe) doing their job right and working on their car’s to go fast without cheating and even without destroying half of the Engine every time around.



    “Quote”


    I heard a number of strange happenings from warmups to starting line antics, etc, before these videos surfaced. Until these videos surfaced, several individuals can vouch for me that I defended you and your team. I always said I thought the combination of the whipple at 1.70 overdrive and the fact your team just had your car figured out is why you ran so good early.


    And that’s just why, “do your homework and you can run quick” isn’t that what they say?



    “Quote”

    There was also the run when you smoked the tires in Finland. The whole 'haha look we smoked the tires' deal was a bit over played. I play a lot of poker, and it really seemed overboard, like a bad attempt to hide a good hand. Just my opinion.


    It was in Sweden and not in Finland.

    Maybe you should stick with Poker then. Just my opinion.



    “Quote”

    As I said before this isn't a personal attack on Timo or his family.


    Not only myself and my entire family but the whole Werner-Habermann-Racing Team takes this very personal.



    “Quote”

    I think there is enough suspicious runs to warrant a further look into this. So does anyone agree with me this looks fishy? As I said I'd love to be wrong on this deal, so if someone has a good explanation, please be my guest.


    As I said, put in a protest and the right people (Certified FIA-Technicians) will find out more, if there is anything to find out. Or do you want to base your accusation on member’s of a Internet-Forum by judging video material when they have never seen the car run?



    “Quote”

    Trust me, High Definition, lots of frames per second, eyes will be on you next year.


    They always are, we use part of that footage to judge the setup to go fast, if you know what I’m talking about……. O.K. maybe you don’t.


    For your Information:


    My Dad started 35 years ago in a Top Alcohol Funny Car and he has more knowledge than anybody else… including a William Hanna.


    My Brother and myself have learned everything from our Dad and also we stay in good contact with the right People like our Engine Builder and friend Bob Miner.


    We run a totally different combination than all the other racers do, and it took us a long time to have a setup like we have today on 2 Top Alcohol Dragsters and to end up with the 1st & 2nd place in the FIA Championship.


    Anyway thank's a lot for all the real nice slow motion videos – we can maybe learn more from them and go quicker in 2011 :p


    Thank You


    TIMO :cool:
     
    #10
  11. rb0804

    rb0804 Member

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    Is it possible that he is hitting the limiter in low gear? The lack of MPH 5.35 @ 252, makes me think that they are running a 4.56 gear to 60' hard. Cars with that kind of gear are usually have two characteristics, they get up on RPM quick, and the clutch adjustment is critical. Are these cars allowed to run a lock up clutch? The only thing that I can think of is that the tach triggers some sort of timer for something (what that may be is anyones best guess). I would like to see a video of the the car, non slow motion so I can actually hear the what the engine is doing.
     
    #11
  12. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    class

    You see here what happens. My statements had nothing to do with the Habermann's personally, but you see where they are trying to take this. I know right or wrong on this, I did it with class and professionalism.

    I don't think I need to respond to your petty insults.

    I'm also glad you seem to be content to rest on your laurels on how good you are. I'm glad I could help find that ignition problem that your brain trust seemed to miss all year.

    You had better keep doing that homework, though, because you can bet your ass Fred Hanssen Racing is coming out swinging next year.

    "It's not revenge he's after, it's a reckonin'" - Doc Holliday
     
    #12
  13. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    rev limiter

    RB0804: thats my point - why is the car 'apparently' only hitting the rev limiter for the first 1.2 seconds? If it was hitting the chip that early in the run, it should continue to hit the chip all the way down.

    Section 8.2 of the FIA TMD Rules

    "Any ignition system that incorporates any programmable multi-point rev limiter and/or any rate-of-acceleration rpm limiter in any form is prohibited."
     
    #13
  14. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    Just an observation
    Timo says the tech guys will have found it if he had anything wrong,

    To be honnest the tech guys wouldnt have a clue what to look for at all,

    the tech guys have not been exposed to it befour and any of them at European tracks spend a lot of time looking for the correct tags on everything and thats it............
     
    #14
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  15. Roger_Sausage

    Roger_Sausage New Member

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    True enough, I very much doubt any of the tech officials know what a Davies T/C box looks like, never mind a more complex or disguised system.

    Interesting topic for sure.
     
    #15
  16. topalky511

    topalky511 Member

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    Im not taking sides here at all but I have hi speed camera footage of my top alcohol dragster doing a very similar thing here in Australia.
    It was at the Winternationals here in June, the car had a miss in the first hundred feet on every run, it looked very much like the vido's of Timo's car, we ran .92-.93 in the 60' all weekend, we also top qualified and won the event as well as running under and resetting the national record 3 times 5.56, 5.53, 5.51 and ran 256.99mph on a couple of runs which was within a .5mph of the record. My car definately doesnt have traction control, after the race we changed out all the electricals, kill switch, 6 shooter, wiring,crank trigger, retard box etc and sent the mags, points boxes and coils to Electrimotion and they all came back OK.
    We have ran twice since and the miss seems to have gone yet the car seems to be running pretty much the same in the 5.50's and within 2 mph, 60's are the same.
    Like I said im not taking sides but if someone would explain how to i would be happy to post the video's, for all to see, the car is a spitzer car with a screw blown hemi, psi d at 88% over, exactly the same as a nhra car just with less overdrive as per our rules.

    Aaron Hambridge
     
    #16
  17. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    youtube

    create a youtube account, upload the video, then post the link here.
     
    #17
  18. clint thompson

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    hmmmmmmmm

    I had similar issues when I used the msd 8973 box on my car. intermittently it would miss, usually in low gear and act just like the rev limiter. I don't have any good video to compare, but the car didn't run too bad even on those runs. Perhaps Timo's car ran so good with no miss because the miss was gone, not because the traction control was not used. big time accusations in my opinion. Interesting to see how he runs next year. Lots of ways to cheat out there if one is so inclined.

    Clint
     
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  19. Dunmic1

    Dunmic1 New Member

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    Timo and Dennis

    Hi there ,

    This is Duncan from Malta . Probably you dont know nothing about me but I run a top Alcohol dragster here with the same whipple charger as my freinds does .
    Probably also you dont know that Timo and Dennis made my wish come true .
    I dont know why you are putting such comments on these guys . Probably you dont know them enough but I do . Let me tell you why .
    I have a 433cui Hemi so we are talking on a small cui compared to the 450s and 470s that you run . And the best one is that my chassis is a 300inch top fuel one (year 1988) , so immagine how heavy and old this is !! You can ask Andy carter cause it use to be his .
    Anyhow Timo and Dennis came to Malta to setup up my motor and after some mishaps like bad weather on Saturday , we had only Sunday chance to run .
    On Sunday Timo told me we have to do half pass first but if the car runs good , give it full pass and thats is what happened and I clocked a NICE 0.93 at 60' and 5.93 full .
    We were really happy than cause I had the best official time in these last 5 or 6 years and second official best of all time in MALTA .
    (I dont want to get you boring but this is important )
    I wanted another run and I made another 0.932 at 60' and 5.92 full with a tire shake on the 2nd gear . You can see both runs on you tube by typing telephonebox dragster .

    My answer is that dont forget this is a topfuel HEAVY chassis , we were low on boost , we can go leaner , we can go higher on timing , we can give more clutch and the funniest is that I didnt had any rev limiter and no retard box . This can be confirmed from a freind of myne who gave me his mag 44 cause yes I dont have one yet :eek:

    I think the problem is that these guys are so good that they are a problem for everyone .
    That is a 100 percent fact from what I wrote above . Probably I am very lucky that god met me with these guys and noone can give you a better reply than I do .

    Hope this is a good reply for you guys .

    Duncan
     
    #19
  20. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    skills

    Duncan, I never questioned their expertise.
     
    #20
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