NHRA seeks input on electric timers and programmable ignition systems

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Sep 13, 2006.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    NHRA requesting information, input from Alcohol racers

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    9/12/2006


    The NHRA Technical department is seeking input on two proposals for Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car to allow the use of electric/electronic timers to control the pneumatically-operated valves in the fuel systems and to permit the use of programmable ignition systems.

    1. NHRA wants the opinion of the racers on whether NHRA should allow the use of electronic timers in the Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car fuel systems.

    The use electronic fuel timers for fuel system management have been permitted in Top Fuel and Funny Car since 2005. Noted advantages of the electronic timers over the pneumatic timers are said to be better consistency and ease of use. As used in the fuel categories, if accepted, the system may use only movement of the throttle, a transmission shift, and/or an engine RPM switch to control the pneumatic fuel system valves and/or to start the timers.

    2. NHRA is seeking information and specifically whether the use of programmable ignition systems such as the MSD 8973 should be allowed in Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car.

    Similar devices are permitted in all other NHRA eliminators from E.T. to Stock to Top Fuel and Funny Car. Many competitors currently use a series of pneumatic or electronic timers and/or RPM switches to control the ignition system.

    The MSD 8973 system incorporates an overboost safety circuit to detect spikes in manifold pressure from broken valve train components and instantaneously retard timing to eliminate a lean explosion and the resultant engine damage and oil down.

    If accepted, NHRA would outline the rule for the ignition system as follows, "Any ignition system that incorporates any programmable multi-point rev limiter and/or any rate of acceleration RPM limiter in any form is prohibited. Any ignition system that incorporates vehicle performance data via measurement, sensing, processing, inference, etc. to activate or deactivate any function or capability of the ignition system is prohibited. Only preset times, throttle position, engine RPM, other internal engine data (temperatures, flow rates, and pressures), and transmission shifts may be processed with regard to control of the ignition system. Any sensor or wiring that connects or transmits vehicle performance data directly, or indirectly, to the ignition system is prohibited. Ignition system components must be utilized in an unaltered manner consistent with the manufacturer’s installation and instruction books unless otherwise approved."

    Competitor input is a key element in considering this proposal, thus NHRA is requesting competitors, owners, sponsors, and manufacturers who are involved in these two categories to respond. Competitors must include their current license number with their response. Please send all constructive comments by September 29, 2006:

    NHRA Tech Department
    P.O. Box 5555
    Glendora, CA 91740
    Attn: Jim Skelly
    Or via e-mail to racerinput@nhra.com

    You can also post your thoughts here
     
    #1
  2. Chuck Anderika

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    0
    Star Wars

    This will be a hard sell with the grey hairs of the class, most of who consider anything except their TV remote to be STAR WARS. I hope their are enough young guns to push this through and stop the class from becoming nostaglia racing.
     
    #2
  3. was R4K

    was R4K Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chuck- "grey hairs" ? Hell some of us would kill for hair of any color!:D
     
    #3
  4. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    copy of my letter to Jim Skelly

    Hi Jim, My name is Dave Germain TAFC6057. I am a top alcohol funny car racer on an extremely limited budget. Anything that would help to run my car without killing more parts is something that I would be in favor of. I especially like the idea of retarding timing in over boost situations such as valve train failures. I have had that happen to me and it has resulted in oil downs and engine explosions at national events twice. There are folks out there with big budgets that don't care how many engines they blow up. They just load another bullet in the cannon and let fly. In my case blowing the motor results in parking the car- sometimes for the rest of the season. If a programmable ignition system would help in this regard I am all for it. I would ask that the rules could be written in a language a non-attorney could understand. It certainly confuses me in it's present form. Thanks for asking the racers opinions. Dave Germain
     
    #4
  5. Lorenzo

    Lorenzo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    0
    :D That's pretty funny. yet, it's sad but true!
    I'm not familiar with the MSD unit But I do know the lahey unit and I can honestly say it's the best thing since sliced bread. This "young Gun" is all for it!
    If these "grey Hairs" can't keep up with technology it's to bad! There's no limits to a drag racers ingenuity, If a person wants to better themself than they'll have get with the program and learn it If not they should'nt be playing in the big kids sand box. It all comes down to LAZINESS TO LEARN!! That old saying you cant teach an old dog new tricks is a bunch of BULL. lmfao I just showed a 70 year old man how to adjust valves the other day and he was lovin every minute of it. Make more room in your hard drives Fellas You can't stop technology (what's a hard drive :p ;) )
    You have my vote if it counts for anything :)
     
    #5
  6. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    1,902
    Likes Received:
    36
    I wonder what Frank Manzo would think of being called a "grey hair." He's getting plenty of it as is Dennis Taylor. Me, I think mine is just falling out before it gets a chance to turn grey. :eek:

    263 out of a "grey hair" in a TA/FC is prettty good, I think.:rolleyes: I'm sure he'd be excited as anyone to race a "young gun" just for grins. Last time I saw John Glade I noticed his hair is turning color, too.
     
    #6
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2006
  7. eli

    eli Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,657
    Likes Received:
    1

    Randy Thank you, so i dont have to say to much, other than the old saying that youth is wasted on the young and ungratefull, it would be best if they get the electronics. for without them they woulden`t know there a$$ from a hole in the wall. :eek: as for my self I dont need no stinking electronics. ;)
     
    #7
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2006
  8. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    1,902
    Likes Received:
    36
    Eli:

    I think it's a good idea.

    Air timers are neat to look at but that's about it. I've had a lot of success with the Decker timers, but our best runs didn't involve them as much as you might think. I see a lot of people getting lost adding and subtracting everything but the kitchen sink on a run. Nothing beats relying on just a good ol' main jet.;)

    RG
     
    #8
  9. was R4K

    was R4K Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eli- take "grey hair" as a compliment---sorta like a silvertip in the grizzly family-
    They just speak a different language now and I am sure it's not an insult-- I'm 61 yrs old and still learning, the young guys will learn too - it's just a more expensive learning curve now compared to what we went through---:)
     
    #9
  10. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

    Joined:
    May 13, 2003
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    36
    Speaking of old and loosing hair..........

    Good point here....., A little story from 1990 while Co-tuning Roger Primm's deal and setting top speed almost everywhere we went, we were making CoryMac start to tear his hair out trying to figure out what we were doing.
    At Pomona (last race of the season), After getting beat, Roger decided to show Cory that the two "Whitey" valves that were plumbed at the back of the motor had the bleed lines unioned together under the bellhousing, meaning they did absolutely nothing! It was a long season and now you know what happened to Cory in such a short time ;)
     
    #10
  11. Scotty Mac

    Scotty Mac TAFC

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey GT,
    Don't forget, if it wasn't for the grey-hair's years of R&D, the technology wouldn't be where it is today. I heard a story this weekend about a couple of ex-young guns back in the altered days testing out a chute that was hand made. They tied it on to the tow hitch of a car and when they reached a certain speed, they threw the chute out the window to see if it worked. I was laughing my butt off when I heard this story.
    I think as long as the grey-hairs have kept up with the technology throughout their racing years, the added change should be easy to learn.
    Just the opinion of an oil soaked, grey-haired, young gun. :p
     
    #11
  12. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought this thread was for folks to give input on the electronics options for controlling timing and fuel events during a run to the competition committee? I didn't realize it was a young guy versus old gay debate. Maybe I am too serious about this racing stuff?
     
    #12
  13. clint thompson

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    4
    what he said

    good point dave. it is amazing how these threads can get off track in a hurry.
     
    #13
  14. Beal TAD519

    Beal TAD519 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    1
    Has anyone used this before? Some imput from someone with first hand experience would be good. What does this replace? MSD retard box? Six shooter?

    Shannon
     
    #14
  15. Izzy

    Izzy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shannon, this doesn't replace either. It only replaces your air solenoids & timers. It allows you to retard or advance your timing off of an electric timer. It also allows you to open & close jets on your six shooter electronically. It is very simple to use but extremely accurate & repeatable.
    I for one, am all for it. It is fairly inexpensive & easy to use. I see no downside to this whatsoever!!!
    Jeff Isbell
    TAD7107
     
    #15
  16. Gary Mangiafico

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    1
    Electric Timers

    I agree that the electric timers should be allowed.

    It allows someone an easy and accurate way to adjust the fuel input or timing input times. It is easier to use and inexpesive. Just like the air timers it is a closed loop system, it does not adjust itself going down the track.

    To me it is a no brainer. (LET US USE THEM)

    Absolute Pleasure Racing LLC
    Gary Mangiafico
     
    #16
  17. CAlbertTAD149

    CAlbertTAD149 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    The a fuel cars are already fast enough. They finally gave us the overdrive to close the performance gap, which makes us somewhat competitive. I see mid and low 20's a real possibility, but i doubt we can run an .18. If they give the electronics to us that will significantly help the fuel cars. Then all the lobbying that was done to get us the overdrive will have been for not. You will see the fuel cars pick right up and we will be where we were 3 years ago. Give us a chance with the new o.d. limit for a while before you try to change things. Let us do one thing at a time. All of the blown alcohol dragster guys should be against this. This could really hurt the strides we made in the past weeks. Now funny car is a different story because everyone has the blown application. So what does every one think?
     
    #17
  18. eli

    eli Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,657
    Likes Received:
    1
    You are a very bright person, give it to the funny cars only.:D
     
    #18
  19. James2

    James2 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    5
    Clarification

    Will,

    Is the NHRA proposing the 8973 or 8971? I thought the 8973 was illegal for fuel cars, as it allows individual cylinder adjustments, among other things. The 8971 is the standard digital retard.

    Thanks,
    James
     
    #19
  20. larrymiersch

    larrymiersch Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2003
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    3
    electronics?

    What exactly are you talking about? Are you refering to the electronic timers or the ignition stuff? If you are talking about the electronic timers then I believe you have the wrong idea. The electronic timers will NOT help performance. They will just ease the between rounds routine for both your blown team and my a-fuel team. The electric timers are not affected by weather changes as are the air timers.

    It sounds like you have no experience with the electric timers. I suggest that you do a little research on them. They would be a great addition to our class. I'm sure that you will concur.
    -Larry
     
    #20

Share This Page