Is A/Fuel Really Cheaper???

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Sep 16, 2003.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    I have heard this statement over and over. Some would have you believe you can run A/Fuel on a super comp budget and run .30's all day. I've worked on both combinations, and according to my calculations, the differences are so negligable, it is very hard to quantify a noticable savings.

    granted, i don't have near the experience working with a/fuel, but i am familiar with every part on an A/fueler and Blown car, so I can and have done the math.

    while for some racers, the switch may have in fact been cheaper. keep in mind many of these racers went from tune-ups that blew stuff up left and right on blown cars to a/fuel combos that didnt. in the time since, while the blown combo hasn't made huge performance gains, it has become more refined over the past few years.

    there are areas of the car that are cheaper for a/fuelers. on the flip side of that coin, there are areas cheaper for a blown car.

    the big thing that is cheaper on the a/fueler is rotating assembly. due to the lower operating rpm's, you don't see the rpm related parts attrition. however, with the new grp rod, you can get twice the runs we used to get with brooks on a blown car. we went from 12 to 24+ with the new grp. that cuts the rod expense in half.

    ok, lets look at the savings that off set the blown car. with an a/fuel car you have twice the plug expense, and twice the ignition expense- parts and wires. you also have 25-40% more clutch expense. you have one more disc and floater, and the direct drive set up is pretty hard on clutch parts. then lets not forget about the 90% increase in fuel expense.

    now before i go on, let me address the clutch deal - i know an a/fueler can go get old t/f stuff out of the trash cans. chess bushey told me himself that was not a good idea for consistency, and to the best of my knowledge, randy meyer, jerry darien, gunderson and others don't do that.

    the above comparisons are based off a perfect world, with no parts breakage - just off parts depreciation per run applied to new costs. in the real world, mistakes are made on the tune-up, which sometimes lead to parts breakage. this is nearly impossible to quantify, but based on my experience and observations, a/fuel repairs due to missed tuneups and parts failures are generally more expensive to repair. truth be known, i would guess brad anderson and steve sanchez see twice the a/fuel heads come in for repair as blown.

    the costs of both are also proportional to how hard you run it. i've been told by a notable a/fuel tuner that the cost of running goes way up when you go from .30's to .20's. teens appear to be even more expensive. just as it is with a blown car, to go from the .40's to the .30's.

    getting a date to the dance is also more expensive on the a/fuel side of things. i know of several a/fuel tuners that get $5k a race. i have also heard that some combinations cost $25k just to get before you buy parts. most top blown tuners go for $200-$300 a day. drazy has a tuneup that will get you in the ball park that comes with the blower in the instruction manual.

    the above comparisons are just a segment of the budget to run the car. pilot truck stop doesnt care if you have an a/fueler, blown car, or Z stock automatic. Tom Bodette doesnt care either. The logistical costs of getting your team to and from the race and labor are a big chunk of any budget.

    this post isn't meant to say you're wrong i'm right. it is meant to start an objective discussion of this issue.
     
    #1
  2. G.Reichert

    G.Reichert New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    Will when we ran an alcohol car for eight years and never had any money left over at the end of the season in the race car account. It cost us what Bar's Leaks gave us and more. We changed to A/Fuel four years ago and the A/Fuel account always looks pretty good at the end of the season and Bar's Leaks are given us less in the past four years then before. The biggest expense was switching to A/Fuel Bill sold his blower and injector to make the switch. Also we have run twenties and thirtys and one teen and didnot hurt a thing. On Gundersons 5:23 pass at 280 I was told he didnot hurt a thing. Sorry people but it is cheaper. We did not believe it was until we switched and found out for our selves, you cant believe what everyone says you just have to see for yourselves. Thanks Will just wanted to let you know what Bill and I know. Its nice not to have to spend money out of our business for a change to race.
     
    #2
  3. G.Reichert

    G.Reichert New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess I would not say it has been so cheap for Mike Gunderson because of the motors he has blown up, but I bet if he would not have blown up motors he would say its cheaper to run A/Fuel or maybe not you'll have to ask him
     
    #3
  4. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    mrs. reichert,

    thanks for the response. i originally intended to include in my post 'there are exceptions to every rule' but it was late and my brain was dropping cylinders rapidly...

    for the topic of discussion, let me ask a few questions. they aren't meant to be taken in a dorogotory way.

    when you were running blown, how many motors did you blow up, kick rods out, etc that could have lead to higher costs?

    how many product deals do you have now that helps ease the costs? i know thats not necessarily public business, and if you dont want to disclose that, i understand. i'm sure ngk is one of them, and that is a few hundred dollars a race saved on plugs. i know teams have fuel deals, that takes a big chunk out of it. oil deals? do yall have a clutch deal or use old tf discs? tires?

    if you do have some of these deals, how would it effect your budget if you did not have them?

    also, is your comparison based on total money spent or standard operating costs. while i know the bottom line at the end of the year is real world, for the sake of comparison, it is nearly impossible to quantify the difference if you happen to be comparing budgets that involve several blown motors, crashes, etc.

    based on what i have seen of your team, you and bill have done a hell of a job in running an efficient team that has achieved results. keep up the good work, and i hope to see you at the track soon.

    thanks again for your thoughts, and i look forward to you and others thoughts on this subject.
     
    #4
  5. Dan Lynch

    Dan Lynch Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    0
    What ever happened to Bill's son Andy? At least that's what I think his name is. Haven't seen him around in many years...

    Dan
     
    #5
  6. G.Reichert

    G.Reichert New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    Will I cant remember how many motors we blew up I know it felt like alot. We went threw blower belts alot and bearings, fuel, tires, plugs on every run had to be changed oil after every run had to be changed Crashed two cars from shaking. The only deal we get with the A/Fuel car is some plugs the rest we buy . We dont get tires or fuel or bearings free or anything else. I know its hard to believe its cheaper to run the A/Fuel car and we never believed it could be until we tried and found out it was cheaper and easier to drive and Bill thinks its alot more fun to drive.... As for my son Andy he likes to fly airplanes so he now has his third plane and goes flying every weekend. He will be at Dallas since I cant go my daughter has a date for homecoming and needs me at home to help her get ready.
     
    #6
  7. G.Reichert

    G.Reichert New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    WIll I looked back at our records and with the alcohol car our biggest expence was rods, bearings ,pistons for some reason we only got ten passes on the rods and they would be cracked. We get thirty to forty passes now on rods, our clutch disc are used off top fuel cars and we hardly ever hurt bearings. The biggest expence on the A/Fuel car seems to be fuel and tires. I guess you need to ask more guys in A/fuel why its cheaper they know more then I do.
     
    #7
  8. Langenhammer

    Langenhammer New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2003
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's awesome, Mom Reichert, keep things in perspective. Ya got your priorities right. Hope your daughter has a great time, there will always be another race.
     
    #8
  9. Kingnitro

    Kingnitro New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    0
    Forget it Will, you'll never get any of these A-fuel guys to admit some racers actually like running a blown car! Afterall they're smarter than everyone else!
     
    #9
  10. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,706
    Likes Received:
    132
    mrs reichert,

    grp's new rod really has helped the rod expense. we always scrapped the brooks at 12 runs with jason's car. same program was on shelly's and jay meyer's car. i switched jason over to grp this year, and shelly switched as well, and the rods we changed in indy had 23 runs on them. the set in jason's car in louisiana this weekend were on their 16th run, and he smoked the tires when he swapped feet because a loose fuel line covered the left tire, so you can imagine how quick and hard it hit the limiter, but it stayed together. it actually revved so hard it threw a chunk out of the bottom blower pulley. :eek:

    as far as bearings go, i know its more tune-up related than not, but when i was working for rudy, we couldn't get more than about one run out of an m bearing. maybe i'm less forgiving on my 'throw out specs' i dont like to run any bearing that i can't get back to .845" after scraping. it even seemed to hit the v bearings too.

    duane shields showed me a new lsm spring in indy that he's been running. steel spring, half the price of titanium, and usually gets 14 runs out of them. its interesting, i've always been scared a steel spring can't keep up with the cam above 9400 or so. but duane runs good.

    also, how many runs can you get on oil? most nitro cars i have seen cant get more than one run. most of the time we run 2 runs on valvoline 50 or 60 wt, shelly runs 3 runs.
     
    #10
  11. G.Reichert

    G.Reichert New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    Will We change our oil after ever run it looks awful and im guessing its because of the nitro in it. I dont know maybe it could be used twice I'll have to ask Bill. We change our bearings if they measure .050 or bigger which is hardly ever except for the pass at reading it got all but one for some reason. A/Fuel tune ups are very touchy. I dont even wannta begin to understand them too much stress at least when I see Bill with his he stresses himself out too much over it. No Thanks Ill just do my job and he can do the rest.
     
    #11

Share This Page