ignition!!!! 20 44 vs 10 plus???

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by DISCODEAN, Dec 2, 2005.

  1. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    if mike canter is out there i like ya to answer this please. i have an 548 ci chevy 871 high helix carbon hat 11.7 to one comp. 4.50 bore 4 1/4 crank at 28%over. on alchol . no matter what i did run timing at 28 to 33 fat lean 4.50 always !!! in 1/8 at 153.00 . msd said ign . more ign. so i bought a 10 plus !! didnt change any thing. un plug an plug in . fired it up checked timing .. went to 44 degrees w/o changin any thing. so i backed it down to 30. off the trailer went a 4.38 so my question is this ?? should i spend more money an up grade to a mag?? pro 44 or 20 ?? do you think ill gain ??? or a mallory?? what mallory is equal?? super mag 3 5 10?? thanx discodean! ps/ if i go for more boost is my ign enough???
     
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  2. shomethemoney

    shomethemoney New Member

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    Timing Change

    Had the same thing happen to me, Changed from Mag 20 to 44 and timing was off 10 Degrees. Msd told me my timing light was wrong. Talking to someone more familiar with MSD products, said to change leads around on crank trigger, it fixed it.
     
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  3. Bob Kraemer

    Bob Kraemer New Member

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    Here is a link to DRO about timing lights and which ones are the most accurate.

    An article from DragRacingOnline.com: ::: DRO ::: Tech Section - In Tune with the Times - 10/7/05. Here is a link to the article. You can either click on the link or copy it into your web browser: http://dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_10-lights-2.html
     
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  4. Lonnie Houde

    Lonnie Houde Member

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    When we ran IHRA Pro Mod a few years ago,we we were running a 14-71 Kobelco "Superman" @ 29 over and ran mid 6.20's with a regular MSD 10 ignition. We had no problems with misfires or dropped cylinders! I think you'll be wasting your money if you go to a Mag. However, I do believe Mike Canter can get into the technical side, far better than I can.
     
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  5. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    msd10

    lonnie was that a msd 10 or a msd 10 plus??? thanx dean
     
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  6. Lonnie Houde

    Lonnie Houde Member

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    Just the MSD 10! We switched over to a 10 Plus the next season and saw nothing different in power or the tuneup. However, I do have to tell you that we burned up about 4 - 10 Plus boxes in about 20 runs! I think the 10 Plus isn't as reliable as the regular 10 box. We also talked to other people in the same boat, as far as 10 plus boxes burning up. So we wern't the only one's with 10 Plus problems!
     
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  7. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    msd 10 plus

    now have you went to a mag since then??? did the car go faster?? i was running a 140 main jet with a msd 7al3 with the 10 plus im at a 175 !!! and still fat !!!! so i think i can burn alot more fuel with a mag !! more fuel ya burn more horsepower right!! every one i know with my set up main jet around a 110 to a100 ???
     
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  8. Lonnie Houde

    Lonnie Houde Member

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    Yes we now run a 44 mag, But to tell you the truth. I myself heve not seen any power advantage on our stuff, when switching to the 44 amp Mag!! With the Mag we have to run about 3 degrees less timing, on average. In my opinion,you really need to start checking some stuff on your motor. I say this because the 10 Plus puts out around 735 millijoules of energy at the plug. Your 7AL3 puts out less than a third of that, so in "theory" you should need more fuel with the 10 Plus, and therefore make more power! Have you tried running more timing with the 10Plus? than what you did with the 7AL3? I say this because the Rise Time of current in the 10 Plus, sometimes is slower than an ignition with less peak spark energy. IE you may have to run more timing for the correct results. If you do this, do yourself, and your wallet a big favor and check the rod bearings every time you put more timing in it! And yes I do like the Mag better than the box. In the last 2 years of running the mag, we haven't had a single ignition problem. However, if you do switch to a mag, You must put a good 24 volt source to your starter. The mag needs the extra starting rpm to work correctly!
     
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  9. blown375

    blown375 New Member

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    discodean

    Dean you said, you were running a 140 main with the 7al3 and a 175 with the 10 plus and still fat !
    You went -leaner- and its still fat so that would say the 7al3 is burning more fuel than the 10plus ,CORRECT?
    Hope I didn't sound like a jerk, just trying to help!
     
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  10. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    10 plus

    when i had the 7al 3 i would go from a 140 all the way to a 170 no change in et at all!!!! may be, maybe 2 hundredths ?????
     
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  11. Leon

    Leon New Member

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    DiscoDean, what about the fuel system? What pump,nozzles,checks,jets,boost,so forth.If their isnt any response on the ign,then the fuel is all thats left.What about idle temp and head temp.Can the plugs be too cold as to not get a correct reading? If you can give me the fuel setup, i can run it and see where it is. Do you know what the a/f is?
     
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  12. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Just got back from PRI. Interesting discussion going on here. First let me say that according to MSD there has been no problems with the MSD 10 Plus as far as reliability. 90+% problems with ignitions are caused by something wrong with the car. MSD and Mallory just do not put out unreliable stuff. Why would they.

    The MSD 10 Plus if used with the right coil puts out more MilliJoules of power than a Mag 20. They only thing that puts out more is the ProMag 44. I think the MSD 10 Plus is a great choice.

    How do you know the motor is fat? What are you using for and indicator?

    Also what plugs are you using with what gap?

    Have you verified that your TDC mark is right on?
     
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  13. Lonnie Houde

    Lonnie Houde Member

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    Mike, I know an engineer that works for MSD, and he also told me that the 10Plus is crap!
     
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  14. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Hmmm, I am surprised because many 1/8 mile ProMod guys use them around here with no problems and also my contacts within MSD say they have no problems with them. There are stories also about the 7AL2 and 7AL3 boxes but when they are sent into MSD there is nothing ever found wrong and then they find the problem was in the car but the igbition box was blamed. Pat Musi has used the MSD 10+ on his nitrous cars in the past without problems.
     
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  15. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    msd10

    leon the pump is an enderle 110 main is 175, high speed is 60 . bv is set to 22 or 78% leakage checks at 60 and other at 16 lbs ??pump saver at 155lbs and idle at 2 lbs.nozz.??i have to look?? idle temp is 800 to 850 egts.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 4, 2005
  16. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    10 plus mike canter

    the motor is fat by my reading ,cause the plug isnt even losing any cadium at all.comes out a little black but no cadium gone??? the plugs are ngk 9 i dont know the rest of the # right now. timing is tdc dead on line 0 then 360 backwards so the mark is on . starting line egts around 800 and finish line between 1020 and1100. ive been working with chuck maruniac he's really been alot of help!!! i drove 4 him acouple times . in t/d we qualified # 2 at rockingham world finals and went to the semis. fat as all get out went 6.35 at 210 lowering the shift w/o any lean outs!!! so i know he knows what hes doing. he gave me the set up from his chevy he used to run, same cubic in. and blower . so im in the ballpark but i would like to go 4 teens cause the bump around me is getting ridiculous!! in quick 8 races. i know they say millajoules this and that , but im real good friends w/ tim ferrell the old crew chief 4 connie, lori jons, jack clarke,worked with jim head, so on and so on he says i cant compare a mag 2 a box,cause they are rated totally different. a mag is rated by the amps it puts out , a box by the joules,these are totally different readings at the plug ,and a mags spark duration is longer . correct??thanx disco dean i appreciate your help mike
     
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  17. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    I don't mean to piss on your friends shoes so let me apologize before I start.

    The amount of spark energy at at a plug gap is measured in MilliJoules regardless of if it is an stock HEI, a MSD 6, a MSD 10+ or a ProMag 44. The 44 amp part of a ProMag 44 is NOT the current in the spark but is the current of the primary side of the ignition coil. Now some ignition systems have multi-fire through 20 degrees degrees at low rpms such as the MSD 6, 7's, 10' and the Mag 12. This is Multi Spark Discharge or called MSD and that is where MSD got its name from this is ALSO refered to as Spark Duration (in crankshaft degrees and not in duration of a single spark pulse). This occurs only at low RPMs which you are out of right away on launch.

    I belive that some of your friends are comparing apples to oranges and it is understandable because it is all confusing.

    In the electrical world MilliJoules comes from the word Joule which is a unit of work energy.

    These are the power outputs at the sparkplug gaps for all the following MSD systems when matched to the correct coils, This is apples and apples...

    MSD 6AL -105-115 mJ
    MSD 7AL2 -105-115 mJ
    MSD 7AL3 - 160 mJ
    MSD 10+ 700 mJ
    MSD Digital 7 - 190 mJ
    Mag 12 - 300 mJ
    ProMag 44 950 mJ

    You never did say what sprakplug gap you are using.
     
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  18. DISCODEAN

    DISCODEAN Member

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    10 plus to mike canter

    the plug gap is 18 . so do you think it would be better 4 me to go with the 44 ??? or a waste of money??? thanx 4 all the help!! those pro mod guys your talking about ,how much over are they running % wise , one guy at msd told me not to go over 35% with the 10 plus ??? true ??
     
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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2005
  19. DQUES

    DQUES Member

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    That main jet seems huge to me with a 110 pump . Do you have any idea what your nozzle area is ? , and are you running hat and port nozzles . Here is where my last chevy ( 509" big chief ) tune up started . 14\71 HH 38% , 110 pump

    Nozzle area = 4086 , hat-2290 , ports-1796
    main jet = 55
    hi spd. = 55
    pro mag 20 = 29*

    By NO MEANS use these #s for your engine , just showing you what I started at , and this initial tune up was purchased from a fuel system/engine builder that flowed my pump and entire system . It was plenty rich . Something just does not seem right running a 140-170 main jet on your set up .
     
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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2005
  20. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster

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    Dean, a ProMag 44 is never a waste of money. It is the ultimate in ignition systems and may help or it might be just overkill. I do think a MSD 10+ would give you all the spark power you require. The only way that you know how much boost you can get away with is to try it because it is a combination of how good your blower is, your static CR, and your cam. If you come up on your boost and your power drops off then ignition is one thing to check.

    It really all depends on what you want to do in the future. If you think you will keep on wanting a bigger more powerful blower then maybe buy a 44 now.
     
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