Hemi On-Board Starter HELP? PLEASE!

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by Blown540, May 1, 2011.

  1. Blown540

    Blown540 Blown Alcohol Dragster

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    Any ideas, help or suggestions are appreciated, and after our first trip to the track last night with a new hemi combination, I could not even start at the starting line, I shucked about 10/15 teeth from my flexplate, and running a BBC, never broke but one flexplate in 10 years! I had started the motor 3 times. I have a premier starter that everyone recommends on ITA and went with a nice billet flexplate, but the starter teeth held (some damage, but still there) and the flexplate is trashed. I have always run a 168 tooth flexplate on Chevies, but the hemi trans adapter/kit I am using calls for a 130 Chrysler flexplate and Chrysler type starter, and after much sweat and grinding the starter cleared the block and all seemed well, until the teeth let go; is the 130 flexplate OK? Has anyone out in ITA land, used one OK? THANK YOU for any help in advance, we have to run an on-board starter due to rules! THANKS! Jim
     
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  2. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

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    starters

    Do you have room infront of the motor to mount a RCD type starter off the front of the crankshaft like the A-fuel guys do? They aren't cheap but you wouldn't ever have a starter problem again. Dave Germain
     
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  3. Blown540

    Blown540 Blown Alcohol Dragster

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    Not Enough Room

    THANK YOU for the reply and I had thought of the starter in front of the motor, but not enough room. I need to figure out a way to make the onboard starter work, I am just wanting the help on, will a 130 tooth flexplate work, versus the 168 tooth that I know that is working for several cars we run against! THANKS AGAIN! jim
     
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  4. Moore

    Moore New Member

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    Starters

    Running a GPE starter ( w/o the long nose pilot) and a Reactor Flex Plate w/168 Tooth ring. Reworked the block as you said and the starter bolts to the mid-plate. Have run this on a 512 blown Hemi for several season without any problems. We put 24 volts to the starter to spin it over and on the second rotation turn the mag on & it fires. I talked with several people about flex-plates with ring gears and every one suggested the 168 tooth.
     
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  5. badbird

    badbird New Member

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    if you run a chrysler ring gear a chevy starter wont work,
    years ago i had a 500 B1 and i put a glide behind it with a chevy ring gear my tilton chrysler starter always jammed and stripped teeth and busted starter ends... that was my ignorance i had a chrysler engine with a chrysler starter so every time i got a new starter end i always got a chrysler one then one day the guy selling me the parts actuly asked what ring gear i had i told him he sold me a chevy end and problem solved forever
    im guesing its the same the other way round
     
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  6. Blown540

    Blown540 Blown Alcohol Dragster

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    Chrysler Starter and Flexplate

    I do have a matched Chrysler Starter and a 130 tooth Chrylser flexplate matched with the same DP teeth, just trying to find out if the crankability of the 130 tooth is where I am having a problem now as the 168 tooth never gave any problems, but the conversion bellhousing I have now does not have enough room for the 168 tooth GM flexplate! THANK YOU for your help! Jim
     
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  7. hemi altered 378

    hemi altered 378 Blown Altered

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    we have always ran a 168 tooth flywheel with a chevy starter on our hemi....no problems. as far as the 130 teeth causing a problem, i wouldn't think that would be the case. how much clearance do you have between the starter drive teeth, and the flywheel teeth with the starter engaged? you need to have at least .040 between the 2 sets of teeth....check it with a piece of wire. hope this helps
    Darren
     
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  8. sean70ss

    sean70ss Member

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    starter

    does the solonoid need hit with 12 volts form the starter button or 24 volts? even though it is wired for 24 volts.
     
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  9. Moore

    Moore New Member

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    Starter

    Sean70ss, -- We hit the solenoid w12 volts and the starter motor with 24 volts.
     
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  10. Scouder

    Scouder New Member

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    I just put a Meziere starter on my Hemi/Glide combo. It uses a 130 tooth ring. There are two critical measurements when installing the starter. The first is the gap between the starter pinion and the ring gear when the pinion is retracted (not spinning). I can't remember the exact numbers, but it seems that it was a range between .060 and .140. If the gap is too big, the pinion gets too much run at the teeth. When I first set mine up, my combo had a gap of about .330. I sent it back to Meziere and they cut the mount to compensate. The second critical measurement is the gap between the faces of the teeth when the pinion is engaged on the ring (backlash). Again, the exact numbers escape me, but there has to be some lash, and it cant be bottomed out in the valley between the teeth.

    I guess a third thing to check is the tooth pitch on the pinion. A 130 tooth wheel takes a different pinion gear on the starter than a 168. I believe a 168 takes a 12 pitch, and a 130 takes a 10. Your starter company will know this.

    As for voltage. I asked Meziere about whether to put 12 volts to the solenoid and 24 to the starter, and they said put 24 to both. I have heard this from more than one source. My speculation is that 24 to the solenoid engages it quicker, minimizing the potential to 'weld' the contacts and hold the starter on when you let off the button.

    With 24 volts, and 25% gasoline in my squirt bottle (because of our cold air), my engine catches instantly. It is so quick that I intend to make an attempt to start it on 12v just to see if it will light.

    As a caveat, I only have about 6 starts on my engine with this new starter setup, so I can't comment on longevity. As for the crank mount deal. I had one on my car and it worked fantastic. Never had a problem. The only reason I switched is the starter and bracketry weighs 33 lbs, compared to 13 for the side mount deal, and my crew chief doesn't have to re-engage the dogs every time we spin it over.

    -Brian
     
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  11. Blown540

    Blown540 Blown Alcohol Dragster

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    THANKS for all of the replies!!!

    THANKS to all rsponding and I have done everything correctly and just will have to pull everything tomorrow and see if anything else could have caused the problem, this was the 4th start on all new parts and all clearances and specs were correct. I am like everyone else on here, I just hate to spend time and money and get to the track and not even make one pass, but maybe all is going to be OK, I just want to feel some hemi power! THANKS again! Jim
     
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  12. Moparious Maximus

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    Ours is a 572" Chrysler wedge not a Hemi but that shouldnt make any differance. We use a 130 tooth ring gear and Chrysler starter and it works fine for us. Its a 11.5CR, 8-71 motor that probably makes it easier to start than one with a 14-71 on it, but ours starts fine with 12 volts to the starter.

    Like was said before, check those clearances.
     
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    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  13. BLOWN INCOME

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    check your pm
     
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  14. Scouder

    Scouder New Member

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    You runnin' a mag?

    -Brian
     
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  15. TADHemiracer

    TADHemiracer Member

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    Starter Problems Shearing teeth

    I run a 168 chevy tooth ring gear with my Crower three disk pedal clutch on a 526 Brad hemi, 12.4 compression, 14-71 HH using a mid-plate mounted starter. I found out the hard way that PROPER set up and clearance is CRI-TI-CAL. I found that even with good measuring methods, the pinion distance from the ring gear decreased when I tightened it all down. I call that tightening the "pull-in" distance. I found that about .045 clearance between the pinion gear and the ring gear worked well for me AFTER TIGHTENING. Also be sure that you correctly set the "backlash" between the pinion gear and the ring gear between the tooth "faces" NOT between the tooth top and the bottom of the tooth on the ring gear. Be absolutely sure that you have proper clearances and you may find that shucking teeth goes away. Almost forgot, I also found that one of my prior motors had too much "run out" on the ring gear and would actually walk the pinion gear off of the ring gear while turning it over. Be sure your run-out is within limits (mine now is about .005)
    Since I run a MSD 44, I also found that engaging on 12V and then hitting the starter with 24V spins the motor more than fast enough to fire the mag (build oil pressure quick too). Good luck figuring it out. Just my .02
     
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  16. Moparious Maximus

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    Yea its a mag, an old Vertex turned up a little.
     
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  17. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox New Member

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  18. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox New Member

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    I have exactly your combo TADHemiracer said: Meziere starter with 168 tooth hemi and Screw blower and all clearances are set and with 24v wont turn motor over. just got starter back from Mezeire and they say starter is good. all new Mcamais car double rail new size 1 cable and done everything new still wont turn, i can turn motor over easy by hand 60 lbs with torque wrench. anybody run into this before.
     
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  19. jay70cuda

    jay70cuda Member

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    Terry cox I have this same setup. But I have a 166a flywheel because the ti can liner won't fit a 168 anymore. I use the mcamis ultra small starter box that weights like 7lbs ($2200) batteries. I can use it 3-4 times before it won't crank the starter. When I had on board batteries the cable caused major problems. I now have a plug inside the double frame rail with a plug. Batteries hang on the door x bar and go along for the burn out. Then crew guy pulls them out. Spins the engine about 15-1800 rpms.
     
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  20. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    This likely will pertain to all combinations but one thing I learned the hard way on Chevys is to add a bracket at the front of the starter to the block.

    Remember the bracket Chevy used to put on and most of us discarded as useless? Turns out there is a reason for it.

    If you ever get under there and watch it crank you will be shocked how much it moves around hanging off those 2 bolts.

    Since then I make and install a bracket on even the smallest of starters.
    Add the bracket along with all your careful measuring and busted teeth problems go away.

    24V to the armature advocate here.

    One other old tidbit.
    If you are working on a BB with an oem iron block there is a different starter for it versus the fit all starter most places want to give you. Look up an early BB with a powerglide. Slightly different nose mount height on it. No more nasty sounding starters on your tow vehicle. Cast iron nose is a plus.
     
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