Fork in the road.....

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by wolfgang, Jun 29, 2003.

  1. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

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    Ok, if the goal is to make a blown car (at it's best) be able to run with a a/fuel car (at it's best), then it seems to me there are 2 options.

    1. Someone suggested making the nitro cars run the same 90% mixture the pros do to slow them down a little.

    2. Allowing the blown cars to run larger engines.

    I know option 2 is expensive, but at the same time it would be nice not to have to penalize the a/fuel (and let's be honest: of all the a/fuel guys out there now, we're primarily talking about Bradshaw, Lucas, and Reichert. There are others that can step up as well but those seem to be the three that are capable of running quick somewhat consistently).

    Here is a question for the blown guys- I know option 2 is expensive, but how long does a blown alcohol motor last? My thinking is if NHRA announced the rule in advance and people were going to have go get a new engine block(s)for the next season anyway, it wouldn't be that much of a shock. With more cubes, we may seen blown guys in the 20's (or even teens on occassion).

    A related question- what if NHRA separated the national and divisional events (ie- maybe for divisional events run the a/fuelers @90%, but for national events, with separate point structure totally independent from divisional, allow the a/fuelers to run at 100%, but also let the blown guys run larger cubes. More expense but compensate with larger payout. Maybe a separate sponsor from Lucas could be found for the top alcohol classes on a national level (and then maybe they could run at a few more national events). Maybe a designation between Pro and Sportsman (Pro Sportsmen?) could be used for a National top alcohol championship that has nothing to do with the divisional races.

    Not trying to start a flame war, just curious for some discussion from more learned folk than myself.
     
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  2. paalexander

    paalexander New Member

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    Wolfgang: Bradshaw, Lucas and Reichert? I think Tony Bartone would be surprised to see himself left off your list, as would Art Gallant, last year's national champion. And what about Keith Stark? Not to mention whoever sits in the Darien seat next year (some people are saying she will be a Force to be reckoned with). Even our loyal Joker, who wouldn't want you to forget his best times, I'm sure.
     
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  3. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    wolf-

    more cubes with a blown alcohol motor isn't exactly a big a deal as it is with a normally aspirated motor. actually, in some instances, smaller cid was found to be more advantagous (when there was weight breaks per cid). the reason is with a blown alky motor, boost per cid is more important than just having cid.

    now, don't get me wrong, more cid will make slightly more hp. i remember when jay meyer bought jay payne's last tad. it was a much lighter uyehara car. the advantage - according to brad anderson's dyno, a 451 motor made as much horsepower as a 475. you could have the same hp with a much lighter car. what am i getting at? cid increase would make a little more power, but nowhere near the power to pick up almost two tenths.

    about the only thing other than more cid you can do to help the blown cars is to allow them the c blower, but that has problems there. norm at psi would need some significant lead time to manufacture the 30+ blowers that would need to be made for next year. same with the cid rule. if you called for a crankshaft right now to almost any crank mfg, there would probably be 2-3 month wait. depending on how many cid you were to increase would determine if new blocks would be needed. most tad teams run short deck blocks. new blocks would be a considerable expense..
     
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  4. Kevin Brown

    Kevin Brown Top Dragster

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    Pat....Thanks for the support!

    I think those with a PSI that have ran fast...well they still talk about those runs too...

    Peace, KB
    Tell Norm hello for me will ya?
     
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  5. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

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    You're right about Bartone and Gallant (and maybe Gunderson?); for some reason my brain was only thinking about guys from the Midwest to the Pacific coast.
     
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  6. bogart

    bogart New Member

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    Maybe a smaller diameter fuel line to the pump on the a/kackle car?
     
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  7. paalexander

    paalexander New Member

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    Kevin -- I was sure you wouldn't mind a little teasing. Of course people like to remember their best times! I've never been there, but I suppose it must be a great feeling, or racers wouldn't keep doing it!
     
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  8. Kevin Brown

    Kevin Brown Top Dragster

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    Pat, If I had not run those numbers I would'nt have a damn thing to talk about!!!LOL

    Peace, KB :cool:
     
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  9. 310TAD

    310TAD Top Alcohol

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    Since the arguement that 90% would be harder to keep lit than 95 to 98% nitro, is pretty hard for me to swallow, I ask a future hall of fame Top Fuel Crew Chief. Amazingly,he said I was thinking correctly. Since methonal is so much easier to light than nitro, when you cut the nitro with the methonal, it will stay lit easier. This should make for a more consistemt race car (remember, that's all that wins races, LOL), and less problems (oil downs, broken parts, etc.). I will not name my source but he is very well respected by most racers. He does not have an AF/D, and currently nothing at stake in the TA/D class.
    Marty
     
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  10. 310TAD

    310TAD Top Alcohol

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    From what I've learned, lowering the percentage would make them more consistent, but at least temporarily would also slow them down some. The neat thing is, it's a free change. Nobody has to go out and buy new cranks, rods, pistons, blowers, or any other expensive parts to replace their existing inventory, like previous attempts by NHRA.
    Yeah, JD (or anyone else in his shoes) probably doesn't want to give up any performance advantage, but as I said, my source has nothing to gain or lose in the TAD class.
    Whatever change they make, and they need to make one soon (read: last winter), it needs to be inexpensive so that we don't lose anymore of our racers. They also need to stop trying to add weight to the AF/D's, as it just loads the motor harder and makes the car less safe. Attendance in the TA/D class peaked last season, and now is starting to go down.
    Another advantage to limiting the nitro percentage is it's ever adjustable. If the advantage starts to tip one way or another, a percent or two can be given or taken away as deemed appropriate by the rules committee. Shoot, it there could even be two different percentages for good air races and bad air races. Although lately, other than maybe Denver and Bristol, the AF/D's don't seem to be slowed anymore than their BA/D brothers.
    More cubes won't speed up the alky cars (the infamous Santo-Grimes-O'Bannon car ran a smaller cubic inch engine), and you're right about the C-Blower being an expensive one time gain (and it's not worth the .15 - .20 second gain needed to even the class).
    I hope NHRA doesn't wait to long to stop the damage. 2 1/2 years ago, they sent us a letter saying they weren't going to mess with the rules during the 2001 & 2002 seasons. That period came and went. It's past time for a fix.
    Marty
     
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  11. Dan Lynch

    Dan Lynch Member

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    I beg to differ. Back in the early 90's there were more cars per race than there are today. Plus the cars that were running, ran more often. The A/FD, the titanium springs, the latest blower of the week, etc is what has cut the car counts. This isn't anything new, although right now it isn't even fair racing for the TAD cars...
     
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  12. Funnycarbob

    Funnycarbob Top Dragster

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    Just an idea. How about A\FD with only 1 mag? BAD's with the new MSD 60 amp?
     
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  13. Mad-Mic

    Mad-Mic New Member

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    i heard that the Pro guys are starting to get alittle upset that these A/FD's are getting closer to their times and could in all actuality qualify for a National Event. i don't know if this is true or not but i think i would be alittle worried if these cars start pulling low teens or even high .0's consistently. thats just too close to what the pro's are running and NHRA needs and should do something to slow them down and bring this back to a sportsman catagory.

    i'd like to see it back to where it used to be and that was if you get down the track you won. if both got down the track it came to the holeshot as the deciding factor. now it's ok i got down the track and so did he and i even holeshot him by .1 and still lost by .2! seems to be no real honest way set forth to limit the class for a closer equality. with no guidance from NHRA it's just gonna stretch the BAD A/FD factor till there are no BAD's left except for the elitest with the mostest :eek:
     
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  14. Kingnitro

    Kingnitro New Member

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    Marty and RG, I've talked to a couple of Fuel people that have dabbled with A fuel. They said 90% would be Huge! No blower to make up air, they said 92% is where the power Changes bigtime! As far as the Gizmo, Norm Drazy told me it will be a Cold day in hell before NHRA makes it legal! Plus, with his Fuel blower program taking off like it has, couldn't fill many orders! NHRA has to decide whether they want the Blown cars to be competitive in the coming years. With the performance of the A-fuelers like it has been the last couple of years, I seriously doubt it!
     
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  15. 310TAD

    310TAD Top Alcohol

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    King,
    I like you have done some research on the nitro percentage issue with knowledgeable people. The consensus was that, with a decent tune-up, an AF/D team will outperform a BA/D team in the vast majority of conditions at 92% and higher. The proof would be in the pudding, and the neat thing is the percentage could be adjusted alittle, either way, as needed to make the playing field more even.
    And your probably very right on your "C" Blower thoughts. PSI is now very busy trying to get a foothold with the TF and FC teams with their roots blower. Norm mentioned something about 2 years of investment and work to pay off.
    Marty
     
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  16. Kevin Brown

    Kevin Brown Top Dragster

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    Marty, why don't you and The KING gather up all of your findings and go to NHRA? Maybe they will listen...of course you may very well may have to reveal your sources!(I for one would like to know who they are) Just asking....cause this will NOT get resolved on an open message board!

    Kevin
     
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  17. 310TAD

    310TAD Top Alcohol

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    Kevin,
    I understand that you would like us all to be quiet about this subject and maybe it would never be corrected (until the class is gone). However, freedom of speech is alive and well here in the beloved USA, and these message boards are used to discuss racing related topics. Yes, NHRA is the place where the solution ultimately has to come from, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it here on a messageboard intended to talk about issues facing the alcohol classes.
    I live in the alcohol ranks. I have raced at least 10 weekends, in a Top Alcohol Dragster since 1988. It took me several years to build a successful program, mainly due to a severe lack of funding. My family has sacrificed greatly to help our program advance. Last year we were given a huge boost/reward with our first financial support. We told them (and ourselves) that we had the experience to turn that support into a championship contender. With the current performance disparity in our class, we don't have a fair chance to do that. I'm not saying we don't have any chance at all, or that we're going to quit trying. We're not asking for a perfect world. Just would like the playing field evened up as much as possible.
    Two of my sources will be in the Hall of Fame before too many more years pass, and either one of them has forgot more about racing than you or I will probably ever know. However, understandably, they have ask not to be publicly named. And so, I won't.
    Marty
     
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  18. Kevin Brown

    Kevin Brown Top Dragster

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    Marty, I NEVER said to keep quiet about your feelings....NEVER....we all make sacrifices Marty, each and every one of us...my point is to get TARA or send in your own letters about your concerns....it turns into a pissing contest on the message boards...this is all I am saying! I agree there is a problem with parity out there...but guess what...I don't have the answers to it....neither do you Marty...we have what we believe to be a solution but it is only an opinion...plain and simple....an OPINION!

    We all must do what we feel to be right, I am as passionate about AFD as you are about BAD...for that I respect your opinions Marty as I respect ALL other drivers in TAD (and other classes) This has never been debated.....it has always turned into a pissin contest....don't blame AFD Drivers or owners/tuners...if you have issues contact TARA and or NHRA is all I'm saying! I don't see this ever being resolved!

    Marty this is not NASCAR and not all cars are the same...but to publicly announce that some "Hall O Famers" say 92% is the fix...and then not to reveal the source is in my (small mind) warranted an opinion/rumor and therefore awarded ZERO credibility...

    I have sent NHRA my letter about how I feel about TAD! Have you sent yours?

    NHRA is the best forum to serve the TAD class, it's owners/drivers/crews don't you think?

    Think about this....Maybe NHRA will say to us TAD/TAFC folks..."Piss off" all of you are gone....we are bringing in Pro Mods to replace all of you sniveling whinning TAD racers....it could happen...I don't think so but it could...you as well as I have seen some stupid chit go on in front of our own eyes....

    Marty, I feel for the BAD folks...I truly do...we as AFD racers have been there done that! I for one had a hell of a time beating those damn BAD cars...but the only merit as of late to your dismay is that it is hard for a BAD to capture the number one spot...3 months ago, all we heard about was Tony Bartone running away with the class....why did that talk stop?...oh my bad...Tony is struggling right now huh....and is not a threat at this point!

    Last weekend 7-4-03 one thing is for sure.....
    3 TAD won their events..

    I wanna remain friends and race you one day soon! So I will shut off for now and let the "Higher powers that be" handle their show!

    Peace Marty...

    Kevin
     
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