EFI to port nozzles question

Discussion in 'Manton Push Rods Top Alcohol Tech Questions' started by sammy christian, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. sammy christian

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    I know ther aren't many doing this yet , but the few that run comsync, mick's or atomizers in a manifold block plumbed to port nozzles, what are you doing for nozzle jets/AN fittings so as not to restrict injector flow?

    Seeing normal 3/16"id hoses plumbed from 500-700# injectors to nozzle bodies, 3/16" is also roughly the id on the injector bodies.

    .188" nozzle jets to keep it all uniform? Can standard nozzle jets be drilled to .188" and not compromise the ORB thread to nozzle body?
    Thanks!
     
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  2. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    The OD of the portion of the Enderle nozzle where the orifice is located is a nominal .180.
     
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  3. sammy christian

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    thanks Dave.
    I guess that leads to the next one-
    How to adapt 3/16" hose w/-3an ends to nozzles without restriction (up to .188) or worrying about it breaking off easily?
    I see it being done with 550# and larger injectors, maybe the jet adapter/orifice doesn't need to be that large?
     
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  4. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    Considering the ID of a 3/16 tube is roughly .136 your issue becomes larger. I would have to measure as I forget what the ID of the hose ends is.
     
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  5. drew556

    drew556 New Member

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    Contact Cody barklege with starting line Motorsport he has been working on several cars with comsync efi blown and turbo he should be able to tell you
     
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  6. sammy christian

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    parker 3/16"id hose is what's used on almost any blown application for port and hat lines, not sure of the tech spec on the hose ends ID but they are identical to what is sold as Enderle ends.
    I don't think the hose and fittings are going to be the issue, the nozzles and attachment are my concern.
     
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  7. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    Sammy,
    It's not the hose that is an issue as far as max flow is concerned. It's the hose ends on each end.

    On occasion I make some efi injector to -3 male adapters. They have a .136 through hole.
    I suppose it would not be much different to make some that are -4 male if the sizing is a concern.

    FWIW I suspect you won't be injecting 700 lbs/hr per cylinder so it is likely that -3 will be sufficient. Even if you could 700 lb/hr breaks down to about 1.76 gal/min @ 50 psi. A .136 hole will flow 2.3 gal/min. give or take.

    If you use the common EFI fuel rails then the question becomes moot with a big hole through the middle of the rail.

    I took a minute and pin gauged a Bosch injector I had handy and the -3 hose end..
    Injector entry .133
    Hose end ID .136
     
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  8. sammy christian

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    Dave, Thank you very much for taking the time to answer and research as well, it is appreciated.
    On these current pro mod apps, two 550# or larger are used per cylinder, the entry and exit on a Precision Turbo 550# is .190 but I do not know what the metering point for the solenoid measures, I suspect somewhat smaller.
    From the info you gave, if you were implying that a 3/16"/-3 line is able to support a 700# injector that is the critical matter here, I should be fine.
    Also sounds like a .136 or slightly smaller nozzle jet would be ok so as not be a restriction after the injector.
    Current tuning range is 600-650 PPH split between 2 injectors so your calculations show plenty of margin.
    I plan to use the 15/16"id rails for now unless I have time to build a better "manifold" arrangement, they are supplied by a -12 from a 21gal waterman pump. Lots of fuel returned.
    Do you have a calculator available for gals/#'s vs orifice diameter? would useful in the future.
    Thanks for your help!
     
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  9. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    2 injectors running half throttle sounds more sensible.
    I am not an EFI guy and won't pretend I know what you are trying to accomplish.
    I am puzzled by this jetting talk. Why the jet after the injector if the injector is already the "smart" jet? It sounds redundant and odd to jet something to .136 when the injector is putting out the equivalent of a much smaller jet. I mean that those injectors are your jet and regulator all in one and don't really have a true wide open mode like a MFI sysem unless something has changed. It also seems like that jet after the injector would really mess with whatever flow pattern / atomization that the injector might put out.

    Gotta ask. What does Precision say about this scenario?
     
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  10. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    Ok, I looked up the patent on the ProInjectors. Other than the restriction from a couple of internal turns there does not appear to be a orifice (jet) incorporated. Hence your jet after the injector scenario. It also appears at first glance there is no provision for a clip to hold a line adapter to the injector so you are limited to using a fuel rail. Do they make a version not shown with a Male flare on the inlet?
     
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  11. sammy christian

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    I'm seeing it done by some others but want to be fully aware of how my set-up will play out.
    The Precision Turbo injectors are very primitive in comparison to some of the fancy stuff out there but are extremely reliable and simple. But they do just exit like a garden hose, there is no "spray pattern" hence my quest for a little spray pattern control. might not be all that necessary with a procharged methanol combo, but it can't (or shouldn't) hurt.
    the jet number of .136(or bigger) is just based off what you provided and isn't used for metering but just for traditional hose plumbing without a restriction point, hopefully.
    Plan is to mount 16 #550 PTE injectors in a fuel manifold, plumbed in the normal roots blown manner using -3 lines and nozzles.
    basically for easier safer mounting and condense the hardware.
    Don't want the nozzles to control flow just to make the connections, clean up the packaging and point it the right direction, maybe atomize a little.
    Thanks again!
     
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  12. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    "Don't want the nozzles to control flow"
    Then why use electronic injectors just to open a hole?
     
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  13. sammy christian

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    Direct injection is out of reach for anyone except a factory backed operation.
    Using mfi hardware after the injector is an attempt to help an extremely crude but effective (precision turbo style) injector to perform better.
    And, no, the injector nearer the valve is not necessarily better. Until direct injection, the best F1 engine designs used injectors placed above the runner entry.
     
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  14. sammy christian

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    And the shower comparison is a mile off. If the plumbing were sized correctly there would be no "trickle" or dripping.
    EFI injectors do not vary the size of the opening, only pulse and duration. Shower valve compare is a fail.
     
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  15. sammy christian

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    those last 2 were responses to comments not made by Dave that were deleted.
     
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  16. Swedpuller

    Swedpuller New Member

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    I have made alot of testing the last months with different sized lines ,fittings and nozzles and the conclusion Is that the flow gets restricted in low and mid duty cycle, but at 80% the flow Is the same as standard PTE 550 inectors. Feel free to contact me for more info!
    Flowsheet shows std PTE550 and blockmounted solenoids with enderle 3/16" std "blower" lines and nozzles.
    Regards Emil
     

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  17. sammy christian

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    Wow! that is excellent info, thank you.
     
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