Closing Arguments in the Parity Debate....

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, May 29, 2006.

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  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Everyone said wait till we get the top blown cars and the top a/fuelers together....

    Well Topeka was the showdown everyone was waiting for. The top A/Fuel car in the country was there - Bill Reichert, along with the World Champ Steve Torrence, and heavy hitters Aaron Olivarez, Ashley Force among others. There were some very tough blown cars in Sean O'Bannon, Chris Demke, Richard Putz and others.

    The results are plain as day....it was pretty hot, the air was certifiably 'bad' and Reichert had a tenth on the field all except for one run. Reichert No. 1 in first session with .43, O'Bannon No. 2 with 5.53. Second session, Reichert steps up with a .36, O'Bannon .47. According to the weather reported on DRC, high temps and a very low barometer were the reasons for the bad performance, with corrected alt floating between 3800 to 4800 ft. It sounded like the track was pretty tricky, too.

    Well, even in the heat, most tracks don't see much more than 4500 ft corrected. The word 'most' would encompass the 'majority' of the events on the NHRA schedule, both national and divisional. From Niver's dominance in Tucson with the new 100% rule at alt., it looks like they will run good at those events as well.

    Thus the obvious conclusion is that the A/Fuel combination still has a distinct, significant advantage at the majority of events on the tour.

    The easiest and quickest change to implement would be an immediate increase to the B/AD overdrive. This would provide crucial info to whether or not this change will be sufficient for 2007.

    If anyone has any delusions that an all A/F class is future of the class...look into this crystal ball....go over to NHRA.com and look at the Top 50 in points and count the B/AD's. Take them off the list, and then see what percent that is of the total. Then find someone that is running IHRA TAFC, a class with struggling car counts, and find out how secure they feel about their investment. Like it or not, the Blown combination is a vital part of the TAD class, and essential to it's survival. So is the A/F combination.

    I think the A/F class should be left as is, and give the blown cars some more blower. There is 9 year old technology out there that would restore parity in the class, and increase participation, which is essential to the class' growth.

    I hope NHRA does the right thing, and we see an announcement on NHRA.com soon.

    This is a pretty obvious problem, with the "smoking gun" on the track in Topeka

    The defense rests.
     
    #1
    Will Hanna, May 29, 2006
  2. alky racer

    alky racer New Member

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    Will is wright you have to judge it off the best a-fuel car at 5.36 and best blown car at 5.46. I know a lot of a fuel guys are going to say that it is only one car but fact is you have to go off the two best with both combos and the rest of the guys have to step up. The problem is that collins and a few other NHRA officials have this rounds won vs rounds loss formula and thats how they see parity. I think that O'Bannon getting his second national event win and having yet another all blown final is going to hurt the cause. Will I am glad to here you tell it the way it is. To bad I dont think it will help.
     
    #2
    alky racer, May 29, 2006
  3. hemi altered 378

    hemi altered 378 Blown Altered

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    i think the NHRA officials should look at the past 3-4 years at the rounds won. that's how you win championships isn't it? win the most rounds? based off of NHRA'S "formula" STEVE TORRENCE won the title last year, MITCH MYERS won the year before that, ALAN BRADSHAW won the year before that, and ARTHUR GALLANT won it before that. the past 4 world champions have been A-FUEL........yea i guess that is parity!
     
    #3
    hemi altered 378, May 29, 2006
  4. blownracer/a-fuel

    blownracer/a-fuel A-FUEL

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    Gallant was the first a-fuel car to win the Championship.Tell me how many blown cars won before that.
     
    #4
    blownracer/a-fuel, May 29, 2006
  5. blownracer/a-fuel

    blownracer/a-fuel A-FUEL

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    Forgot to mention that O'bannon is in the best position right now.May change in the next few races will have to wait and see.
     
    #5
    blownracer/a-fuel, May 29, 2006
  6. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    remember when..

    during those blown championships pre gallant....remember how everyone said it was going to be dangerous once those a/fuelers figured out the consistency gig figured out....well ever since, we've had a/fd champs...and will until nhra fixes the class.

    that was then, this is a now problem.

    as far as position goes, i'd argue reichert has the best shot at the championship. gallant is running VERY strong. torrence still has a shot. the way that finke car is running, you better not count them out for a late season run. obannon's only prayer is more freakishly hot events. reichert slipped up one round or we would be singing a different tune.

    the only way obannon wins the championship if the top running a/fd's let him win seattle/sonoma. chicago will go back to the a/fd's.

    but this isn't an argument over who is going to win the championship...it's about the tenth of a second advantage the a/f's have over the blown cars. it should come down to the best blown car lining up with the best a/f car and whoever hit the tuneup the best wins....i know, heaven forbid a good running blown car just flat ass outrun a good a/f car - on a good run.

    i'm for leaving the a/f's alone. why would you be worried about giving the blown cars a little performance?
     
    #6
    Will Hanna, May 30, 2006
  7. nitrohawk

    nitrohawk New Member

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    You think this is closing arguments!!!!!

    Just a point of interest but I was wondering what the results would be if you took all blown cars and averaged their et's and the same for all fuel cars how they would compare. By looking at these numbers it would compare the classes on an average run bases. There always seems to be one car either blown or fuel who is ahead of the curve.
     
    #7
    nitrohawk, May 30, 2006
  8. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    top cars vs top cars

    ok...this argument again...

    i don't know how many a/fuelers have been in the .20's this year....but i do know how many blown cars have been...zero!

    the only way you can compare the two is the top cars in each category. you take the top blown cars and compare them to the top a/f cars. no, not every a/f car runs like reichert, torrence and finke, but there's nothing stopping you but a tuneup and/or budget. same on the other side....all blown cars are measured against obannon, demke, steve will's car, callaway and others.

    if i was on the a/fuel side, i would really look at what happened in topeka before commenting it's still fair. it's so blatantly obvious it's lopsided that any argument to the contrary may really hurt your credibility.

    more blower to come!
     
    #8
    Will Hanna, May 30, 2006
  9. Bar's Leaks Clay

    Bar's Leaks Clay Jr. Dragster

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    A-Fuel

    Will, you need to clean out your box as I could not PM you the below, as your box was full.
    Why may I ask are you so against the a-fuel guys? So I might be a little biased, but there is a reason the a-fuel guys are going faster. I would say in part, those people have put the money in the program, even doing the extra R&D when NHRA changes the rules. I know first hand how many tens of thousands of dollars went into different heads, dyno tuning and track time in just the last few years for one team. We had a blown and injected car we helped last year and with just a little help of ours, Bohrs (blow) ran in the 30's. I would say if they had the money in their program like some of the A-fuel guys did, they would have hit into the 20's. Some of the ex-blown drivers saw the writing on the wall, as they say, years ago and decided to invest in the switch. I just hope if NHRA does update the rules, it is like you are suggesting with the Blown Cars having an option of a bigger blower.
     
    #9
    Bar's Leaks Clay, May 30, 2006
  10. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    equal footing

    clay,

    it's always great to see sponsors posting feedback here. i have nothing against the a/fuel cars. i think their competitive prescence is vital to the class' well being. i'm just standing up for what i think is right - PARITY in the TAD class.

    i'm sorry for being blunt, but all the kings men and all the kings horses, 3 major sponsorships worth of budget and 24/7 r&d isn't going to make a blown car run low 5.20's or teens for that matter with a D PSI Supercharger at 115 overdrive. The only thing that's going to make another super blown car run is about 800 ft below sea level conditions on a double throwdown track with a dice roll on the main jet to see if it will live for 1320 ft on the edge. meanwhile back at the ranch in those conditions an a/fuel car will nail a teen down if they hit the tune-up. once again, you'll see that ever present tenth.

    i've stated repeatedly the blown cars need to be brought up to the pack, not another change to the a/f cars.

    step one is to give overdrive back this year. the c blower would be step two.

    yes, some people made the switch. just because a few have made the switch doesn't mean that all should have to follow suit.

    if and when the a/fuelers ever come at a disadvantage, i will pick up the bat for them. if you remember last year, i lobbied heavily for factored tracks to keep the a/fuelers competitive in the summer back when the end of the world was coming last summer. they stayed plenty competitive on 98%. i lobbied heavily for 97% last year when many thought the reduction should have been to 96% or more. at the time i thought 96 was too much and 97 would do the trick. i was wrong. so i'm not as apt to buy some of the lines from the a/f political machine.

    leave the a/fd's alone, more blower for the b/ad's...
     
    #10
    Will Hanna, May 30, 2006
  11. was R4K

    was R4K Member

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    Will- you are starting to sound like Michelle- THAT'S NOT A BAD THING!
    (no pun intended)
     
    #11
    was R4K, May 31, 2006
  12. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Will IF NHRA was interested in Parity don't you think we would've seen a rule change by now? Len Imbrugno doesn't have the Stones to help the Blown cars out, nor the NHRA for that matter.:confused:
     
    #12
    Darren Smith, May 31, 2006
  13. alky racer

    alky racer New Member

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    Will I believe that there is still some parity issues between the blown cars and the a-fuel cars but to start shouting that the sky is falling and that the blown cars are dont stand a chance to win the rest of the season is going a little to far. I am willing to bet that in Chicago you will have two blown cars in the top five qualifers. I would put my money on Demke and O'Bannon. I would go as far as saying one of them will be in the semis and probally the finals. For you to make a comment that O'Bannons only chance is for the a fuel cars to let him win at Seattle and Sonoma is funny. In case you have not taken notice the blown cars from the west have not had any doubts about heading to the east to race the best a-fuel has to offer. Bill is still the man as of now but dont count out the blown cars from the west. Topeka shows that they can still get it done.
     
    #13
    alky racer, May 31, 2006
  14. ch3no2

    ch3no2 New Member

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    whiners

    UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!! A blown car wins the event, in fact, it was an all blown final and you still whine. Forget all the but's and what if's, those are the facts. Reichert had only one bad run you say, That's the name of the game, he lost and the blown cars dominated on race day when it mattered. Qualifying is nice but who cares on Sunday. Consistancy over quick wins more races, ask Schumacher and Melanie Troxel which is working better.
     
    #14
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2006
    ch3no2, Jun 1, 2006
  15. John Haley

    John Haley Alcohol Dragster

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    Can one of you a/fuel guys tell me how many 5.20's have been run by a/fuelers and how many 5.20's have been run by Blown cars? This year looks no different than last year.
     
    #15
    John Haley, Jun 1, 2006
  16. nitrohawk

    nitrohawk New Member

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    how many 5.20,s

    I agree and am happy for the BAD's. To say that Topeka will be the only race where BAD have the advantage is strange. The BAD's dominated every round of elimenations. Just check the latter an times. You have not heard one a-fuel guy wimper. If they did it was only to verify how hard it is to run in the heat. How about the 5.40 by Callaway at Red River? I was standing behind the car on the starting line and it wa a beautiful pass. The only pass he made in qualifing. Everyone I know congratulated him on this fine run. He was only .003 from Torrence who had to make three runs to beat him by three thousands. The temp was 93 deg. and about 3200 ft. adjusted. Wonder what this run would have been with cool temp and good air? Good air even helps engines with air pumps. I agree it is a little early to start crying dooms day.
    I am sure that NHRA looks more at race day results than anything else. Every hot race so far has ben won by a BAD and we just got out of the spring season.
     
    #16
    nitrohawk, Jun 1, 2006
  17. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    woulda coulda shoulda

    missing a tuneup and being near the threshold of a combination's performance are two entirely different scenarios and should be objectively recognized as so.

    massey ran a .49 i believe in that same round that reichert fell off. given the track conditions, it is highly unlikely a low .40 was possible out of a blown car.

    again, let's not forget the conditions don't get much worse than they were in topeka...look at the pro et's and tafc. everyone was way slow.

    you can name all the national events that have air over 4000 ft one hand with a few knubs if you want to. vegas, topeka (freak deal) and maybe, maybe brainerd. however it will probably be more altitude induced rather than temp, so it's not likely. indy takes so long to run, sometimes you see a whole range of conditions. lets say that's 4 races thats 25% of the nationals alcohol cars run at.

    as far as callaway in shreveport...definitely a good run no doubt. on sunday it was a different story when the temperature dropped about 10 degrees.

    how many times will nhra buy into the 'lets wait for summer' line? maybe they will, i don't.

    who wants to put even money on a blown car winning chicago or any of the western swing races? i'll put my money on nitro.
     
    #17
    Will Hanna, Jun 1, 2006
  18. alky racer

    alky racer New Member

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    Will I dont know how you can believe that a blown car wont even win a race on the west coast swing, I can see how you would think that about Chicago but the west coast is dominated by blown cars. Just as the east is by a-fuel cars. Just the total amount of good blown cars in the west makes them have great odds. Not to mention that Demke,Federlin,O'Bannon,Severence, Johnson,Austin need I go on. That bet is a looser for you. Name your price and I will cover it. If you are serious let me know and we can work out the details. I do appreciate you trying to help us blown cars we could use a little extra overdrive but we are not dead and in case you have noticed we are still in the fight and looking good wright now. O'Bannon has only gone to three nationals won two semis at another set low e.t. and top speed at two and was the quickest of eliminations at Topeka. By the way torrence has been at two of the three nationals with O'Bannon and thats one stout a-fuel car. Good luck Chris and Sean give them hell in Chicago.
     
    #18
    alky racer, Jun 1, 2006
  19. JBJ

    JBJ Member

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    Last year results for 2005 western swing and now the A/F cars have less % ythis year. I don't think that is a good bet either. Adjusted altitude was good for the A/F cars at both of these races also.

    KENT, Wash. - SUMMIT FastNews - Results of final, round 4 eliminations in Top Alcohol Dragster at the NHRA POWERade Drag Racing Series, 18th annual CARQUEST Auto Parts NHRA Nationals:

    W/L Driver RT ET Speed

    (W) Steve Federlin (Impatience Racing B/AD) 0.066 5.461 259.91
    (L) Duane Shields (Shortline Express A/FD) 0.095 5.500 255.92

    4:21 p.m. Weather conditions: air temperature 84 degrees, relative humidity 20 percent, barometer 30.25 inches, adjusted altitude 1,406 feet, track temperature 121 degrees.

    Federlin can win his third race in a row, Shields won a round for the first time since Houston earlier this weekend. His new Hadman chassis has solved all sorts of problems for the team from Las Vegas.

    It's Federlin! Shields ran well down the middle of the track, but he could not overcome the performance in the other lane. Steve Federlin's MOV: 0.0688 seconds (approximately 26 feet). Congrats to Steve, Patti and the rest of the Impatience Racing Team! 4:25 p.m.




    SONOMA, Calif. - SUMMIT FastNews - Results of final, round 4 eliminations in Top Alcohol Dragster at the NHRA POWERade Drag Racing Series, 18th annual FRAM-Autolite NHRA Nationals presented by Supercuts:

    W/L Driver RT ET Speed

    (W) Steve Federlin (Impatience Racing B/AD) 0.062 5.438 259.56
    (L) Duane Shields (Shortline Express A/FD) 0.091 5.499 248.98

    4:03 p.m. Weather conditions: air temperature 91 degrees, relative humidity 31 percent, barometer 30.35 inches, adjusted altitude 1,846 feet.

    This is a rematch of the final from last weekend. For Federlin it's his "4th straight final", 2 national and 2 divisional. Federlin gets .03 on the tree and then out runs Shields by .06. All in all I'd say he won that one going away.
     
    #19
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2006
    JBJ, Jun 1, 2006
  20. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    westward bound

    it's in the best interest of the a/fuelers with championship hopes to be out west. seattle and sonoma should provide favorable conditions for the fuel cars. force has run strong when the air comes around, i know of one d4 a/fueler making the swing, shields can lay down a lick...

    do we ever run the same races alky racer? i'll put steak dinner - both races. a/fuel you buy, blown wins, i buy.
     
    #20
    Will Hanna, Jun 1, 2006
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