Att: Will Hanna

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by tad2155, Aug 8, 2007.

  1. tad2155

    tad2155 Member

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    Att: Will Hanna or Anyone

    Question? How did the A-Fuel thing evolve with the dragsters and why can't
    the alky funnies run an A-Fuel combination, really not fair to let one group do it and not the other, the suits in Glendora surely wants to be fair i just know
    since they want everyone to be like family:D
    On the Sidelines in Bama
     
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    Last edited: Aug 8, 2007
  2. backmotor

    backmotor Owner/Crewchief/Test Pilot

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    Great question, we have asked them (NHRA) on many occasions, they say no plans to do so. Our rear engine funny car would be a great addition to the class, but , I have no interest in having a blower against the back of my head, so we match race and do the nostalgia thing. Pics and video of it are at: www.BackMotor.com
     
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  3. Chuck Anderika

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    You missed your chance by 19 years. 1988 was the last year nitro was allowed in TA/FC. 3.5 lbs. per ci 1650 minimum, nitrous was allowed with nitromethane. 1991 was last year for any weight break for canted valve.
     
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  4. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    A/F history

    A/Fuel started off as a class designation in Comp Eliminator, believe it or not, as well as the AA/DA, now referred to as a B/AD. So did BB/FC (TAFC).

    I don't remember the exact year, but around 73-74 I think, NHRA started Pro Comp for the faster Comp Eliminator classes to run heads up based on weight breaks for different combo's. My dad and Jimmy Meyerdirk ran the 'Sugar Valley Express' A/FD from 76 to 80 in D4 Pro Comp. I think the weight break was 2.2 lbs per cube for A/FD back in the day.

    Just trying to remember all the classes Pro Comp had back in the day...
    AA/DA (Big Block Blown Alky Dragster)
    A/Fuel - Big Block Injected Nitro
    BB/DA? Small Block Blown Alky Dragster
    B/Fuel - Small Block Injected Nitro
    ?? Twin Engine Nitrous
    ?? Turbo Dragster?
    BB/FC - Big Block Blown Alky FC
    AF/FC - A/Fuel FC Big Block
    AA/A - Big Block Blown Alky Altered
    AF/A? - A/Fuel Altered?

    I'm sure someone will correct me on my classes, but in the early 80's, NHRA wanted to get away from chasing weight breaks (you think parity now is a prob). From what I remember hearing, the Funny Cars had a hard time running with the dragsters. So in 81, TAD and TAFC were formed. Most of the existing dragster combos at the time were allowed into TAD, but TAFC did not include A/Fuel. It's been that way ever since.


    We'll take a short break for trivia: Who won the first national event in TAD and TAFC?

    In the mid '90's, NHRA dropped many of the class designations and weight breaks. That's when you saw Santos' potent small block combo go by the wayside because they were lumped into the same weight break as a hemi.

    There have been a couple of movements over the past few years to allow A/Fuel in TAFC. The concensus is that there is no parity problems in TAFC like TAD, so the stance has been to keep them out of TAFC.

    Hope that helps....some of the vets may be able to elaborate on the Pro Comp days a little better.
     
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  5. tad2155

    tad2155 Member

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    thanks Will
     
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  6. Dan Lynch

    Dan Lynch Member

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    TAD: Al DaPozzo
    TAFC: Bob Gottschalk (sp?)
     
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  7. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    In Seattle we were discussing this in Duane Shields pit with Big Bill and Jim Collins. Bill says Duane feels his parts bill was cut in half when he made the switch from TAD to AFD.

    We discussed the dreaded pit ka-booms with the AFD combination as well as the benefits. Then we discussed AF/FC. Collins said there may be some interest in allowing it and it has been discussed. I would make the switch if it were allowed. It would make for some great racing (especially at night) and there would be a new dimension added to our funny car class in that it would truly be a training tool for future pro racers.

    I have to wonder if John Force wouldn't have put his daughters in an AF/FC rather than an AFD if that option were available.

    RG
     
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  8. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    tafc

    there are quite a few racers in tafc that would be quite disgruntled by having to deal with the a/fuel combo.

    as far as the whole a/f cheaper than blown thing, i've openly invited an a/f team owner, tuner, driver, etc. to jump on here and let's get into the numbers game to prove where it's cheaper.

    if you blew up motors with a blown car and now you run fast without blowing up motors, well hell yes it's cheaper. trying to make up the performance disparity probably has lead some to hurt more motors than they would in reasonably equal competition, so this is not a knock to some tuners.

    in a perfect world, no parts breakage from either side the a/fueler may be marginally cheaper on the operational side. increased rod life and valve spring life/material has significantly lowered the operating expense of the blown side over the past few years. the rotating assembly gets a lot more life in an a/f. valve springs are a once a year deal. however, nitro costs way more, they use up more clutch parts and have twice the ignition expense (plugs). don't forget to throw in the cost of your favorite tuner (except for a few). tires and heads don't seem to last like they used to either.

    that's my opinion, and until someone steps up and shows me numbers to prove me wrong, i'm standing on my position. i've conceded it may be MARGINALLY cheaper, but comparing apples to apples, saying it costs half is based on the assumption parts carnage is inherent to the blown combination.

    that being said any moves made to bring a/fuel into tafc on the premise it will be significantly cheaper is based on erroneous hearsay rather than fact. if you have a tafc that's hurting parts, i can assure you it will be way cheaper to buy a tuneup that doesn't hurt parts for the blown combo rather than switch to a/f.

    that's my take on the 'budget' argument.

    now regarding fan appeal, participation, development etc., those are different debates entirely. however, i think tafc participation is very strong right now. IMO, I don't see where A/F FC would bring enough to the table to justify jeopardizing it's success right now.
     
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  9. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Will:
    Your comments are well taken.

    After installing a second ignition system, at $3 a spark plug I doubt anyone is going to quit because they have spend another $24 per lap.

    The facts are, cranks, rods, pistons, springs, etc., last much longer in a properly tuned AFD combination and they last significantly longer than a TAD combination. None of these last well if either combination isn't tuned well.
    Yea, the fuel costs more. But so do tranny sprags, blower belts, dropped valves and burst panels in a TA application. We lost a pushrod last weekend, pushed a head gasket and almost burned the car to the ground in the second qualifier last weekend.

    I'd love to try something different. It might make a marginal driver look good not having to deal with all that confusing stuff like reving it up, staging, shifting and gritting their teeth as they close in on the finish line. Short shifting and being confused while driving would be a thing of the past with AF/FC, but I won't go there in this post.

    If you want to talk numbers, go see Dana Hopewell and Big Bill in Shield's pit on Thursday (tech day) when they would have time to talk about it. They will give you the straight scoop. We had a wonderful discussion and I learned a lot. You might get those numbers you're looking for.

    I can tell you this, if you have an agressive driver with a good tune up TA/FC is not for the weak wallet. When Marc and Larry drove for me we spent some serious $$ running the car and were very competitive. Marc ran 5.50's at 3 out of 5 national events we attended in 2004 and missed the 5.50's by .006 at the fourth. I never knew TA/FC could cost that much, but we were happy to do it. Instead of tranny sprags and rear end gears lasting all year your lucky if they survive the weekend. An average driver who constantly short shifts or shuts it off for no reason makes it cheaper to run TA (spectating on Sunday sucks). In saying this, running a *competitive* TA combination verses a *competitve* AF combination is where Shield's guys are coming from in saying it's 1/2 the cost. A non *competitive* TA verses a *competitive* AF combination isn't a fair comparison. Trust me, you need to talk to them before digging your feet in the sand on this.

    Do not fear change. It's all good.

    RG
     
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    Last edited: Aug 8, 2007
  10. tad2155

    tad2155 Member

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    Hey Guys this is wonderful info, as far as pissed off TAFC guys so what think about us x/TAD guys who has had to deal with all this of making the TAD's equal, i thought this was all about the show and fans, i would love to see an A-fuel funny car, especially at nite, cracking and popping and flames thats what we need something different, that is what we keep debating what to do next year??
    great discussion
    Guy Fred:D
     
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    Last edited: Aug 8, 2007
  11. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    competitive & percent budget

    randy,

    first off, this is a debate, so don't take these comments personal. (disclaimer)

    your assertion of the cost of a competitive blown alcohol combination vs a competitive a/f is based on the assumption a competitive blown alcohol combination hurts parts. i disagree based on first hand experience with competitive bad and tafc teams.

    i am fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to be the understudy of many smart alcohol tuners. this year and part of last, i've had the pleasure of working with steve harker's tafc. his team is one of the most competitive teams i've worked with and probably has the best parts life. knocking on wood, i've seen pistons go 30-40 runs w/o cracking. rods 20-25 runs. i think we've replaced one sprag in 10 events this year. rear end 25-35 runs (ultra case light weight). cranks 50-70 runs. the only motor change was this year in memphis due to a cracked main cap. (close to 70 runs on block/crank)

    i have no idea how often frank manzo cycles parts, but the motor he starts qualifying with is usually the one he finishes with. he may have hurt some parts to get the knowledge he has now, but he is proof you don't have to kill a blown alky motor to run fast.

    i crew chiefed for jason cannon's b/ad. it was a conway program that we ran with. we were the fourth bad in the 5.30's. right before we quit we were the fourth fastest in mph with 267 mph in 04. parts failure more often than not was a result of one off parts failure that can happen to ANY racecar.

    i also crew chiefed for the team after their transition to a/f. once again, a conway program. we did get the car into the 5.3's our second trip out. i've also worked closely with several other a/f teams along the way, so while i've never signed a check to buy the parts, i have a very good understanding of how much money is spent where.

    i've brought this up a number of times. yes, the a/f gets much better life out of the rotating assembly and valvetrain. the added fuel expense, the added clutch expense, the added ignition/plug expense add up in a hurry. how many sets of heads does a competitive a/fueler carry?

    randy, i don't mean to undermind your accomplishments. we've run a best of 5.55 in harker's car and you did that several years ago. you really had the world on it's ear that year with marc behind the wheel. the same for duane. he made some great runs in that b/ad.

    another example...running a competitive top fuel team and top alcohol team are night and day different when it comes to how much it costs. yes, the parts bill is more, but the big difference is personnel costs. point being parts are only a portion of the budget. fuel and personnel costs are a big part of the equation.

    any real or percieved savings of the combination will be more than overshadowed by the costs of a switch from bad or blown alky fc to a/f. the cost of new equipment even after the sale of existing equipment will more than offset said savings! how good of a bargain is it to spend $100k to "potentially" save $15-$40k a year?? again, if your current car is killing 10 motors a year and you switch to a car that uses 1 or 2, well, maybe its worth it.

    if nhra and/or racers are to make a decision to bring a/f into tafc based off percieved savings, i don't think the argument holds water.

    as said earlier, fan interest, new teams, development, etc., are other subjects, but i still don't think it's significantly cheaper***. of course, that statement comes with an *** meaning apples to apples in parts breakage.
     
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  12. TAFC 5 81

    TAFC 5 81 Member

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    Jerry Darien (TAD)
    Brad Anderson (TAFC)
    1981
     
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  13. tjenna

    tjenna Top Alcohol

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    Don't even think about ruining

    TAFC is becoming very competitive and ...

    I would rather watch Manzo vs. Newberry leaving with the rrrr's cranked vs two idling boring unblown piss boxes....
     
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  14. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    GOD, I love honesty..:D
     
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  15. Frankie

    Frankie Jr. Dragster

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    Yeah, but think of the roof high flames at night :D

    Really, we dont need things candy coated around here. Hey Don, what broke on the wheelie bar to send you skyward in Seattle? I know from your perspective that mustve been some ride cuz it sure looked like it from my easy char at home :D
     
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  16. tjenna

    tjenna Top Alcohol

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    How often are the Alcohol cars scheduled to run at night during National events?

    (Not counting the great scheduling by NHRA when it rains or when they decide to just screw the alcohol class)

    Basically, not sure we would see those roof "high" header flames much and they would still be piss boxes.
     
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  17. The Leveler

    The Leveler New Member

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    piss boxes

    i think that the insults about the a/fuel cars need to be re-directed to nhra to seperate the classes instead of "Leveling" the playing field. i grew up around blown cars and 3 weeks ago i licenced in a blown dragster so i'm partial to blown cars but the thing that seperates drag racing from all other motorsports is the variety of different classes most of the other motorsports are cookie-cutter sports where all of the cars are so similar that they dont stand out. i personally used to be only about the top fields but the more cars i have seen and driven the more i can appreciate the challenges and uniqueness of a cool car in the staging lanes. i think funny car guys are nuts but i also would like to drive one (only once) motorcycle guys are insane but alot has to be said about 200 mph on 2 (and alot of times 1) wheel leaves alot to be said. a/fuel cars should not be limited to a certain % of nitro they should be let go seperately and mabey they would get into the 4 second range unblown that is really cool. tad is a class that has alky in the name not nitro. just my 2 cents shane
     
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  18. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Sometimes I get the feeling TA/FC and TAD actually stands for Top Amateur Funny Car and Top Amateur Dragster. Ouch.
     
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  19. The Leveler

    The Leveler New Member

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    :confused: what does that mean?
     
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  20. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Read the last sentence in your post just above mine.

    "tad is a class that has alky in the name not nitro. just my 2 cents shane."

    I was clarifying what the A in TAD sometimes stands for. If you have one (a TAD) you know what I mean.

    RG
     
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