A PROactive look at divisional track safety - Armco and Shutdown

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Please take the time to read my column at dragracingonline.com and come back on here and give us your comments, agree or disagree. Before we even get started, let's try to keep this one level headed. If you disagree with me, just state a simple reason why.

    http://dragracingonline.com/columns/hanna/x_8-1.html

    I have already sent this out to all of the Division Directors.
     
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  2. Speedude

    Speedude Speed Demon

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    You're talking about a lot of money, for one race, which makes how much money?
     
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  3. Bill Naves

    Bill Naves Member

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    safety first

    Well said Will, but be careful what you wish for. In this economy, the option could quickly turn into 1/8 mile divisionals.period. No investment required.
     
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  4. jim phillips

    jim phillips ta/fc

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    Will i dont want to sound stupid but what is Armco mean im assuming it has some thing to do with the guard rails please explain


    and yes you would think they would do some thing with the tracks as for as safety they dont have any problems with making us as owners and drivers buy more and more safety equipment and recertifacations all that wont help much if you hit a tree are a pile of dirt are cross a highway and get hity by a passing truck
     
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  5. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Will:

    I watched from the stands in horror as Kenny Mooers had the same kind of wreck at Bakersfield in the early '90's as Jason Rupert just had at Woodburn (Jason's can be viewed on YouTube). The difference was, Jason bounced off the wall and slid to a stop on the track. Kenny Mooers car drove right through the armco guard rail shearing wooden posts on the way through, slid upside down on the return road in front of the grandstands and then hit the I-Beam that holds the right lane finsh line score board before spinning to a stop. I will not run my car at armco tracks.

    Our trip into the catch net at the Seattle Divisional event the day before Scott was killed could have easily been a disaster because of the exposed posts holding the catch net located after the road course. All they had was a couple of bails of hay in front of them. John impacted the net no more than 20 feet from the right side post that holds up the net, and there was no sand to slow it down before he hit it. A few weeks later for the National Event, Seattle added guard railing to block the post and added extra catch nets.

    Here's a video of my car the first session at Pomona this year when Dan was driving. If Pomona had armco guardrailing it would have sucked the car into it, destroying it, and we would have been out of business, not to mention the risk to the driver.

    Randy Goodwin's TA/FC hits the wall at Pomona

    Even though you can hear him short shift first to second, the time slip still said he was going 201 miles per hour at 1/2 track which is where he hit the wall. At that speed it would be the eqivalent of a Pro Stocker hitting the wall at the finsh line.

    We got off lucky. Because it bounced off the concrete wall we were able to make temporary repairs to fix the car in the pits and make the next two sessions. By the time it was all said and done it only cost me $6,000 to fix the car back at the shop.

    Armco sucks.

    Randy
     
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    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  6. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    safety

    you really have to keep safety in perspective. how much is a trip to the hospital going to cost you. in 1994, i know that the going rate then for a lifeflight trip from the track to the hospital was about $22,000. that's not including an extended stay in the hospital, lost work, and any effects it might have on being able to perform your day job.

    if (insert your favorite tuning guru name here) calls you up and says, hey, Acme Machine is making a double inverse widget diverter that will not only pick your car up a tenth, but your parts will last 20% longer. not to mention it's black chrome and looks bitchin on the car. i know for a fact they work. we put one on johnny doe's car at the end of last season and i'm not kidding you it picked up a tenth just bolting it on and the bearings and plugs looked like they were out of the box. all it costs is $2500. they only got a few left, do you want me to put your name on one?

    most alky racers wouldn't have made it that far. they would have wanted one about the middle of that paragraph, but alot of racers are on a budget. it's going to make the car faster, it's going to make it cheaper to run, and it looks cool. 99% of alky racers really, really want this part. it works on bae and veney heads, roots, screw and a/fuel. this isn't just the trick of the week, it's the trick of the decade.

    you're on a budget tho, and you're spending all you can as it is. but to quote jack nicholson from "a few good men".....You WANT that widget, you NEED that widget...this isn't one of those bolt on and get the tuneup right for a fractional point of boost....this is THE part. only costs $2500. you keep telling yourself that. how much is left on that credit card?? you hem haw around on it, you tell super tuner that man, i just can't swing it today. we just got a couple of boxes of clutch parts and that tapped out the credit card and that retainage check on the job you finished a couple months ago isn't supposed to hit until a few weeks, if they pay it. super tuner has a good history with you and tells you, hey, i know wiley at acme, and if you say your're good for it, it's going to take a couple of weeks anyway because they are still making them by hand since there is no way you can make a double inverse part on a cnc. at least not until they come up with a seven axis machine. i can vouch for you and get it shipped COD if you say you're good for it in 2 and a half weeks. i'm telling you, you bolt this on and it's a tenth. you want me to put your name on one? they only have three more left without a name on them and then they have to go back to making single inverse parts for another three weeks. you can come up with $2500 in three weeks right?

    this far into the phone conversation, your mind is numb, and it's like chasing a good looking woman, you just say a simple "Sure...." we're talking a tenth. and it costs less to run. and it looks cool. and you have 3 weeks to come up with the money. any one of the above was enough. super tuner hangs up and marks you down for an order, calls wiley up at acme, makes the order on his 60 day terms and anxiously awaits his 25% cut. meanwhile back at the ranch....

    nhra comes out with a proven safety rule that will significantly reduce the risk of serious injury in most accidents. the newest device for next year is the Langhorn system, named after it's designer, FJ Langhorn. this thing is so advanced the first few drivers that had it wasn't even sore the next day. they vividly remember every detail of the crash. tireshake doesn't give you a headache anymore. it's really neat and costs $2000. nhra thought it was neat and required it for top alky down to top dragster.

    what a sorry bunch of sob's that don't have a clue what it costs to run these cars! thats what some think because i've heard it right out of their mouth. hell if they want it to be so damn safe, why don't they just run it to 330 ft? you lament having to buy and install the Langhorn device because it's not only $2000 bucks, it takes about 3 days to properly install. it's tedious. nhra tech and managment officials end up at the ear doctors due to severe burns. they get cussed that much....

    the moral of the story is hardly anyone bitches about go fast parts for under $5,000 if you can get one before the other guys in your division. but damn another round of safety upgrades.

    before we bitch about how much new safety equipment costs and how much of a pain in the ass it is to install it, ask someone who's sat in a hospital for a few days how much that cost. ask them how much of a pain in the ass the rehab learning how to walk was. if you've got the balls, complain to that person how much of a pain in the ass the install was.

    i'm sitting here trying to think of a devil's advocate and trying to think of a frivolous mandatory safety upgrade on nhra's part. i'm drawing a blank, so i'll get back with you on that one.

    hell i'm even guilty. i was scared to death of the hans device because i thought it would give me trouble getting out of my tight fit car. i swore by it after one pass, much like everyone told me i would.

    i'm sorry for the rant, but i've heard more than a few people bitch about mandatory safety upgrades over the past few years. just remmeber someone paid a price for that upgrade, they're usually not on a whim.

    going back to the original topic. like i said in the column, we spend thousands a year on safety equipment and upgrades. if it aint right, you can't race. there is absolutely no reason, money included, that tracks should not be held to the same standard. if you didn't have the money for lateral pads, a seat insert and roll cage shield, nhra would have told you to call back when you did have the right stuff. it's just not right to ask some tracks to get rid of their armco guard rails or shorten the track.

    armco is the old style guard 'rail' like you used to see at most tracks, and still see at many tracks. the old post and rail system. at the speeds we travel, it's like a 270 mph bandsaw with a bunch of posts to hit as well. it's dangerous, it gives, and doesn't do a very good job of containing the car. as dangerous as armco is, your racecar hitting grass/dirt at a high rate of speed may be worse. if that car can get a dig into the ground, it really really sets up a bad roll.

    real long rant short. it's like the famous "6 p's" Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. safety equipment is very cheap if it prevents a serious injury. if it was a go fast part, we wouldn't think twice about it. try to take a step back and think of safety rules in the same light.
     
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  7. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Will:

    Do you have Acme Machine's phone number?:D

    In 1989 we were in the final of a Top Gas West event in Bakersfield in our brand new rear engine dragster. Greg Oliver was driving the car. Just short of the finish line he lost control of the car due to a chassis failure where the rear end broke away from the car. Long story short, he was unconsious, skull fracture, etc., and had to be cut out of our car. Lifeflight landed a helicopter near the first return road on the track and took him away. The bill was *only* $1,800 at the time.

    RG
     
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  8. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    What was Greg's reaction time?:D
     
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  9. afuel1

    afuel1 New Member

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    Old pics of Fremont w/ARMCO, poles, etc.

    Here's two old pics of Fremont drag Strip.
    Lots of ARMCO, open areas to really get in trouble.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Jeff
     
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    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  10. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    I thought NHRA mandated walls at ALL member tracks after Blaine Johnson's Death?
     
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  11. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

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    history lesson

    Randy; it was this incident that made me rewrite the SFI materials list to include "NO aluminum tooling plate" in bold letters, then apply the proposal, vote and second it. Of course this was while I was on the SFI committee before they thought I went stupid.

    Bob
     
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  12. Randy G.

    Randy G. Top Alcohol

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    Bob:

    I seem to remember that. Good to know we sacrificed a race car for the benefit of the SFI.

    Our dragster was built by a respected chassis builder at the time. When the car was first taken off the jig it sat high enough to compete in a rock climb. Acknowledging his mistake, the chassis builder put the car back up on the jig and made new rear end plates.

    Long story short, after the wreck I had a conversation with the chassis builder while holding the pieces of the aluminum rear end plate in my hand, which looked like torn pieces of Wonder Bread. He denied it had anything to do with the wreck and insisted it broke because of the wreck...but we knew better.

    Later, an employee of this person told me the chassis builder bought a piece of scrap aluminum used for the second set of plates in our car out of an aluminum scrap pile at a local metal recycler and it had no identification markings on it. End of story, almost.

    This employee also told me he was the one who cut and drilled the holes in both sets of rear end plates. He said the original plates (the ones that mounted the rear end too low in the car making it sit too high) were difficult to cut and drill compared to the second set purchased at the scrap yard. He said the second set of plates cut like butter and were very easy to drill.

    RG
     
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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2008
  13. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Divisional tracks

    Since I haven't been to every track, I was going to rely on other people's memory of some of the tracks, which have armco, etc. Luckily, it's 2008 and we have youtube, so i've taken a look at some of the divisional tracks out there to see which ones have Armco, etc.

    Div. 1
    Atco (it's at the very, very end of the shutdown)
    Cecil County -reverse turnout just past the finish line. Is this closed off for the divisional?

    Div. 2
    Bradenton - Armco at very, very end of shutdown
    Reynolds - Armco just past the finish line in right lane, hard to tell how far down the Armco starts in left lane

    Div. 4
    Noble - Armco past the finish line

    Div. 6
    Woodburn - Armco past the finish line

    I don't know if I've left any out, but that's the best I could tell from the youtube videos and personal experience.
     
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  14. Dale H.

    Dale H. Member

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    Ya, but safety parts don't make you go faster!
    But seriosly I'm all for safety,especially now that my son drives our car,but to what ends do we keep laying on the rules. My biggest gripe is the prices that one has to pay for certified safety equipment.I think alot of racers are getting raped in the name of safety.Now I know that it cost alot to pay for s.f.i. certification test and s.f.i. tags but I can't help but believe that some people are making some good money because of rule changes.Do you remember when engine diapers were first required but were not certified? You could buy one for around $250.00, but when certification was required,the price jumped to $600.00 to 700.00.Was the price of materials & tags that much more or was the price increase just because you had to have it.
    It just seems like every time you turn around there is something else you have to buy for your car but dont make it go any faster,let alone sending everything back for re-certification every 2,3 years.
    I would welcome arguements to the contrairy.
    Thanks for the site
     
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  15. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    recerts

    Dale,

    I'm not going to defend the entire safety industry and say there's never been a company make a buck off a rule change or recerts. The SFI certs do insure a level of quality. Recerts help make sure the parts are doing what they're supposed to.

    Take for instance yearly bellhousing recerts...if they weren't recerted every year, sure as hell someone would run an unsafe bellhousing.

    If you think you're doing business with someone gouging you, do business with someone else.

    As far as shopping costs for safety equipment, that's kinda like shopping for the cheapest surgeon...On the same note, I know from experience what it's like to race on a shoestring budget.

    I'm not really going against you here Dale, because I know what you mean, just looking at it from both sides of the fence. These companies are in business to make a profit, not to mention keep the lights on. Just playing the devils advocate. I'll also say there's been companies go over the line before.
     
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  16. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    shutdown areas

    i just listed the tracks that have armco, i think we need to take a look at shutdown lengths, sandtraps-nets, and obsticles at the ends of some of these tracks. this is where i need to lean on some of your experience to list some of the dangerous run-offs.

    I know Noble, Okla, runs off into a steep railroad track enbankment. I've also seen numerous alcohol sessions ran while the train is going. That could be a disaster. There was a car last year that ran off the end of the track at a decent clip that folded the car in half. There is no net.

    Reynolds, Ga. has a steep berm at the end of the track. I think a SG car hit this wide open last year and ramped over the berm.

    Then again, some tracks may have no net, but run off into a corn field, so it's not that big of a deal.

    Bottom line, if there's dangerous obsticles off the end of the track, there needs to be a sand trap and some nets.

    I'm not trying to call tracks out, it's just let's take a look at some glaring issues and fix them before someone get's hurt, then fix the problem. If the track can't afford to fix the problem, then maybe the divisional should be run somewhere else.
     
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  17. Ken Sitko

    Ken Sitko Super Comp

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    I've run off the end of both the old Calgary track (Shepherd Raceway), and the newer one (Race City Speedway), luckily both have lots of grassy field at the end, and as long as you don't panic, you come out of it fine.

    I've also gone 225 mph with no chutes in Ashcroft at a points race (in the 80's), and somehow got it stopped with the brakes. The uphill shutdown area helped a lot, but it is short, and drops into a deep gorge at the end filled with lots of big boulders. They haven't run top alcohol cars there for quite a while.

    Lots of tracks have bumps at the finish line, which effectively shorten the shutdown area, as it takes 3 or 4 hundred feet to get your car under control to slow it down.
     
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  18. Ken Sitko

    Ken Sitko Super Comp

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    lighting

    Not that I'm going on a witch hunt here, but one of the things that scare me the most is bad lighting and racing at night. Often a race is scheduled late at night to please the fans, and obviously the track promoter has never had to wheel a funny car on a dewed up track with minimal lighting. There are a few instances when the lighting is acceptable, but most often it is not.

    I have been to races lately where the program went longer than anticipated, so there are no lights set up, and it scares the crap out of me to send my kids into the black hole. There may be 2 or 3 permanent lights along the track, but there is no where near enough lighting to be safe. The last time it happened, I was relieved when the car broke 200 feet out. Next time we'll just plan to not run that session, qualified or not.
     
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  19. Dave Germain

    Dave Germain New Member

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    Yeah- what Ken said!!! I ran at Spokane a few years ago when Orville Moe was still running it. There was a light at the starting line and another at the finish line but the finish line light was pointed straight down. When I crossed the finish line it was like running through a black curtain at over 220 mph. Damn that was dark. I couldn't see the other cars in the turn off area other than they were darker than the stars that were out that night. I wouldn't go back there till they fixed the lights. We ran the final at 12:45 am. The entire event was run in the dark. It was planned that way. Thats why I wouldn't go back till the lights were fixed. We an there last Aug. and again ran the finals around 12:30 am. The lights were rearranged and it was fine. The point is that a track operator can run a safe track if he or she gives a s%#@. Maybe the NHRA could make a stand for safety? It takes both the racers and the track operators to make for safe conditions. I just want to know that both of us are making an investment here. Dave Germain
     
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  20. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

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    I'm not trying to start an arguement, but here's a story fyi. We know a guy who used to tractor pull. He got tired of cleaning up all his stuff (bellhousing, clutch) before sending it in for recert, and he swore they didn't do anything but put a new sticker on it anyway. So one year he didn't. On top of not cleaning, he cut a disc in half and put it in the clutch. When he got them back, both were still filthy, with a little clean spot where the new sticker was, and the half disc was still in there. Were they recertified? Yes. Inspected for damage or safety issues? Probably not. I'm not saying this happens all the time, and this was several years ago, but who knows. I just think it's a funny story
     
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