A-fuel vs. BAD

Discussion in 'System One Pit Buzz' started by The Leveler, Apr 27, 2007.

  1. The Leveler

    The Leveler New Member

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    OK I have waited a long time to get my 2 cents in on this subject. i think that the views of both sides are very good. that being said why cant we either work to change the rules to level the playing field or seperate the two beasts entirely? the closest thing in any of the faster classes (6 sec or better) that comes close is pro mod and the two allowed combos are fairly comparable at the current rules. i think blown cars are way cool and a-fuel is a way cool way to get around but 2-3 tenths is quite a difference. now the a fuelers say that the blower guys need to just figure out there combos to get faster but when they do they pop the blower and thousands of dollars go down the drain in a class that is so expensive its real hard to understand how they call it a "sportsman" class. i run an injected alky dragster and its a blast but i live in the mountains and when i do get the bucks together to run in tad it only makes sence for me to put a blower on my car so i can make the power up here and untill i find that water fall of money it would take me to run all over the country it would be nice to be at least come close to being competetive at the big races. now i hope that no one feels the need to pick this apart too much cause if i lived at lower altitudes i would put together an a-fuel car in a heatrbeat cause nitro is the stuff that gets my deal going. so why cant we level this out a little bit to keep it a sportsman class so we all can save a little more money to step up to top fool a little sooner?:D
     
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  2. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    eRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    Cute post.
    Too little, too late.
    Go to bed and try again.
    You are insulting all these(us) people that have worked hard, sacrificed family obligations, spent tons of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to race this class.
    dont comment about this catagory. bring your "stuff" and race. Or dont waist Will's bandwidth and TALK about what your gonna do.. I hope i am not being rude, but this web site has turned into "wannabe fans commenting on how they would race a car if they had one".From this type of comment, you have NO idea of what it takes to get to this level of competition. and run one of these cars. Will. If I am out of line. let me know. I would like to see this site get back to something other that this type of stuff.

    With much respect to Will and all the others that have worked to make TAD/ TAFC, the most "real" catagory in drag racing. THANK YOU.
     
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  3. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    If you think the Nitrous Pro mods and the Blower cars are a level field you haven't been on the Pro mod messageboards!:rolleyes:
     
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  4. Speedude

    Speedude Speed Demon

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    ^x2, thye're pretty well in the same boat now, except nitrous pro mods are nearly unrestricted.
     
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  5. The Leveler

    The Leveler New Member

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    well it is rude and as far as the wannabe fan part i guess it depends on what you consider a fan. i own 8 race cars and my whole family races. (wife 2 sons and brother) i am currentely running an injected alcohol dragster and in the last four years i have improved 7 seconds in et. my dad was second in the nation in top alcohol funny car (then called bb/fc) and took the utah state top fuel championship 4 consecutive years. i have been literally working my fingers to the bone to get to the most " real " catagory in racing. but bieng from a place that our race season cor. alt. is usually around 9000' it makes no sence to run an a/fuel car. as far as the no idea part i guess not ever having actually driven one means that i have no idea you are wrong my freind i grew up in one and am about 12-18 months away from owning one for myself. but if bieng a "fan" of these means that my hard earned money has to be spent on a combonation that will make it that much farther that i have to travel to get to a track around sea level so i can even get the beast somewhat close to what those guys that you say i'm insulting run. as far as will is concerned i have seen a few topics that he started about this same issue and from my end it seems as though the only people that want blown cars to go away have some serious ego problems. my whole point is that if they are going to limit the blown cars that are not currently competetive they should seperate the classes. do you race?
     
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    Last edited: Apr 29, 2007
  6. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    Yes, I do. If you follow Top Alcohol Racing at all, You would see that I(we) have ran out of division 7 for many years. feel free to visit our website.
    www.donhudsonracing.com Once again, This was NOT a personal attack on you, your racing family or your type of racecar. I neglected to see that you are new to this website, and I appologize for coming across wrong to you. I was just voicing personal opinion on how this site seems to be changing.
    Good luck with whatever way you go.
    Don
     
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  7. Darren Smith

    Darren Smith New Member

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    Hey Don, how many times have you been asked if your related to the NFL Hall of famer Don Hudson??
     
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  8. Don Hudson

    Don Hudson Supa fly

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    1.1 million times.;)
    His name was spelled different- Don Hutson- WR Green Bay Packers.

    Have a great day!
     
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  9. afuelfreak

    afuelfreak New Member

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    tafc keep going faster why???

    how can a tafc that has been running the same cubic inches . & the same
    blower since i am gonna say 1999 , keep going faster & faster now into the 40"S but the dragsters , with the same blowers , more overdrive , same technolgy at there disposal , arent advancing the tafc guys are spending just as much $$ to keep up with the jones . cause they have the same parts other than a bigger engine , if you installed lets says MR. FRANK MANZO"S engine into a tad what would it run ?, would it be crazy to let tad"S & tafc have the same cubic inches , if a 125" wheelbase car can get it down the track can a 275-285 " dragster get down with the same power ?
    with bigger engines maybe they wouldnt have to lean on em very hard , less boost , less overdrive , please understand , that i know nothing about a blown car & am just asking these questions , not trying to pick a fight , but maybe trying to understand & get an education , of these cars & what dosent work , before a have an opinnion , of somthing i know nothing about
     
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  10. was R4K

    was R4K Member

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    Would it be a fair comparison to note that over the years the differance between top fuel dragster and top fuel f/c has always been about .2--
    now they are both allowed the same engine as opposed to TA/FC and BAD where there is a cubic inch and overdrive differance, but is not the differance between the two formats still about .2???the design and performance of the two vehicles seems to be the deciding factor, not the fact that ta/fc guys are smarter or work harder than bad guys- BAD has had no advance in body technology over the last couple of years such as the case in ta/fc---Others can certainly expound on this phenomena better than I, so lets hear some more opinions---
     
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  11. The Zone

    The Zone Member

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    That is a great question a/fuel freak.
    The biggest improvements for the TAFC crew are the new bodies. Secondly there is a new head design by Randy Anderson that has a couple teams showing big potential.
    One other thing that may put me in trouble is the blower technology some drviers are utilizing. Mostly in the TAFC ranks because the smaller motor does not seem to like it as much.
    Also this has to be taken into consideration as well.
    Since the TAFC all play under the same rules, and there are in the neighborhood of 120 competitors in the class, crew chiefs are not jumping ship to the injected nitro TAFCs, cause there aren't any. THey are staying put and getting the extra 1-2% out of their cars.
    If you do notice though only four cars have run in the fortys. And the rest do not seem to have moved down even further in the 50's yet. Even Newberry, one of the best has not made a dent in his et in three years or more.
    Hope that answers your question.

    Dean
     
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  12. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    tafc vs bad

    the reason why you have seen steady improvements since 2001 is that they were hit with a new rule change from 125 over to 92 over. Manzo and Gasparrelli immediately went low .60's after the change. So it's taken six years to go from the 5.60's to mid .40's. if that tells you anything about the learning curve of a new overdrive.

    the leading theory for the lack of improvement by the bad's since the increased overdrive is that the heads are the bottleneck.

    i still subscribe to the theory that cubic inches alone aren't that huge a factor on these cars. the cubic inches are sitting on top of the intake. however, the blowers may have reached a point where they need a bigger motor to pump the air into. I don't think going from 470 motors to 500 motors is going to be worth the time it takes to write the press release and put it in the rule book, much less the associated costs with making the swap.
    rather i think bigger 560-580 cid+ motors may start to make the hp and torque gains to start bridging the gap. along that theory, the bad's may save operating costs by developing bigger motors that don't turn the rpm's.

    that being said, i don't know how effective the additional cubic inches would be with the same heads.
     
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  13. The Leveler

    The Leveler New Member

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    maybe if the people who make the rules would focus a little more on just keeping the cars safe and let the motorheads make them run this would not even be an issue. so they want to limit oil downs okay let the rules stand at the national events and let them build what ever at the divisional level:eek:
     
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  14. TAFC 5 81

    TAFC 5 81 Member

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    Will, forgive my ignorance (I have not raced in 25 years), what do you mean RE 92 over?
    DC
     
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  15. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    overdrive

    581:

    They reduced the blower over drive from 125 over to 92 over in 2001. Classic move to save the racer from themselves. 95% of the class was against it and told nhra it would only cost racers more money due to the increased rpm. nhra said, no we're going to save you money because boost kills parts.

    so what happened, you spin the motor 10000 plus to make up for the lost overdrive. racers had to spend money to redo fuel systems, new trans gear ratios and learning curve.

    thing is everyone is geared for 92 over now, and it wouldn't necessarily make things right to go back.

    tad has been at the same overdrive since 97. if you plotted et gains over time between bad, 97 to 2003, i'm sure it would be similar to the gains that have been made from 2001 to present.

    nhra says you cant run a new blower. you can't run new a head configuration, you can't run better ignition....then people want to jump on here and say why havent you blown guys ran any quicker....
     
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  16. TAFC 5 81

    TAFC 5 81 Member

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    Thanks. And I thought 55%OD on a 12-71 was alot (1981).

    This AFD/ TAD debate reminds me of the AA/DA and BB/FC debate in the Pro Comp days. When NHRA split the class in 1981, they pondered going to 500" engines in the near future (RE Pro Stock in 1982), and dropping A/FD (there were very few then). The excuse they used was the cost for AA/DA teams (many with cut deck blocks) to move up. Plus most BB/FCs had 500+ engines. I often wonder what the classes would be like if the change was made.
    DC
     
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  17. Blown Chances

    Blown Chances New Member

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    I see the point on allowing the new C blower in TAD.

    Would it help?

    Yes

    BUT!!! what about the TAFC's they don't get to use it right. Well at least they shouldn't be allowed to unless you want to escalate the cost in that class tremendously. But how, unless there's another tech official that checks everyone's blower @ every race, would you be sure that everyone is running the proper equipment. Because you can't tell a C from a D just by looking at the outside.

    It may open a can of worms that NHRA doesn't want to deal with. So unless you want the whole TAFC class to shell out $8500 (I think thats about what just the blower goes for) for the new technology that is hopefully available, maybe the C isn't the answer.

    As far as heads go, the BAE 6s, which are a new design, are supposedly the new hot ticket but they are actually "smaller" than the 5s. If someone has the ability, I'd chalenge them to make a good run with 6s, then come right back and put on a set of 5s and with the exact same setup in the same conditions make another run to see if there is ANY change in performance.

    I'm willing to bet $$$ that if the driver can repeat there is approximately .01 difference maybe, perhaps with the advantage going to the 5s.

    Flash
     
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  18. angelo stanton

    angelo stanton New Member

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    oldschoolracing

    I raced BAD with a whipple blower until I no longer could get it certified . The cost of a psi vs going a/fuel $$$???? the cost of rods and valve spings with BAD (shields quote "rpm=$$$s") the decision was a no brainer, CONVERT TO SQUIRT. We hurt parts in the learning process (had help from pete jackson and chess bushey) We never ran real fast but could run 5.50's at any given time without hurting a lot of parts, torch heads sometimes, all head repairs are made in house, so no big money spent. Many think by reducing % of nitro will reduce a small amount of power only!!! BIG MISTAKE... there are other changes that must occur, timing, clutch, compression, camshaft, amount of fuel, etc. I thought 97% would not make a big difference, leave everything the same and give it a little more fuel. On the initial hit KABOOM..... kicked two rods, and major engine damage. So for me "CONVERT TO SQUIRT" was the way to go UNTIL 97%. I have found with BAD it's a lot more forgiving, a/fuel you make a mistake YOU WILL PAY FOR IT. I still love the smell of NITRO. Maybe Steve Chrisman T/F has the answer to the BAD vs A/F dilema, limit the blower drive to ??, no clutch management, fuel pump size??, cubic inches??, weight of car?? The class would be called Jr. Fuel, run at national meets only. The same for TAFC. I like it. LETS TALK ABOUT THE PROS AND CON OF IT?
     
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  19. Bob Orme

    Bob Orme New Member

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    That statement made me go look. You're right, Newberry's best ET was at Houston 2004, a 5.55, but, his best speed was at Bradenton this year. ....things that make you go hmmmmm.
     
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  20. Dale H.

    Dale H. Member

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    TAD.
    Would it help?
    Yes
    BUT!!! what about the TAFC's they don't get to use it right. Well at least they shouldn't be allowed to unless you want to escalate the cost in that class tremendously. But how, unless there's another tech official that checks everyone's blower @ every race, would you be sure that everyone is running the proper equipment. Because you can't tell a C from a D just by looking at the outside.
    It may open a can of worms that NHRA doesn't want to deal with. So unless you want the whole TAFC class to shell out $8500 (I think thats about what just the blower goes for) for the new technology that is hopefully available, maybe the C isn't the answer.
    As far as heads go, the BAE 6s, which are a new design, are supposedly the new hot ticket but they are actually "smaller" than the 5s. If someone has the ability, I'd chalenge them to make a good run with 6s, then come right back and put on a set of 5s and with the exact same setup in the same conditions make another run to see if there is ANY change in performance.
    I'm willing to bet $$$ that if the driver can repeat there is approximately .01 difference maybe, perhaps with the advantage going to the 5s.
    Flash[/QUOTE]


    Cody,Your exactly right! The right fuel system, boost, and RPM is what makes any blown engine work.The only reason they come out with new heads is because they need to sell more of them and nobody would buy new ones unless they thought there was an advantage to have them.Sometimes they go backwards(6s valve tips)and they don't improve anything Except to lighten your wallet. And sometimes I wonder if certain people got a deal going with PSI to try to get the "C" blower legal. Like you said, if the C blower was legal in TAD they would inevatably show up on a funny car.
    The cheapest and easiest way for the sport to gain parity is just to keep cutting the percentage of nitro down untill it's achieved.
     
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